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    #1

    Pls, It needs a point of view of native spekers

    Hello!
    My question could seem to be very simple but reasons, which makes me ask this question, connect with understanding of fundamental principles of contruction of English language. That’s why my question is aimed to native English speakers. I would like to know their point of view but not from position of grammar but how they understand some aspect of the language.
    So, my question is connected with perfect verb form. In grammars books are said that verb forms are made with “have” + “participle” (for example: I have broken my phone), also are added that verb “have” in this case loses its own semantic meaning and It is used for showing time and voice but “Participle” gives semantic meaning of action.
    But I think to myself if “have” don’t lose semantic meaning for native speakers and can be understood like verb that has meaning like “own” or “possess” etc., but “participle” - like adjective, i.e. with adjective meaning. What I mean, example, when we say “I have broken my phone” it doesn’t mean that I made action ( i.e. “I + verb + noun) but it means I have got my broken phone (meaning - that phone was broken by me) “I +verb + adjective”.
    This thought came to me cos in Old English to make perfect verb form it’s used “be” instead of “have” that we have next construction “to be + participle” i.e. meaning verb + adjective.
    So, how is it in real for native speakers? is it really that verb “have” in perfect verb form does not have any semantic meaning but only shows time and voice?

    Thx advance!


    Best regards,
    Antonio

  1. Raymott's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: Pls, It needs a point of view of native spekers

    Quote Originally Posted by AntonioKosov View Post
    Hello!
    My question could seem to be very simple but the reasons [this is a defining clause - no comma] which makes me ask this question [no comma] connect with the understanding of fundamental principles of the construction of English language. That’s why my question is aimed to/at native English speakers. I would like to know their point of view but not from position of grammar but how they understand some aspect of the language.
    So, my question is connected with perfect verb form. In grammars books are it is said that verb forms are made with “have” + “past participle” (for example: I have broken my phone). Also added are that the verb “have” in this case loses its own semantic meaning and It is used for showing time and voice but “Participle” gives semantic meaning of action.
    That all sounds reasonable so far.

    But I think to myself if “have” doesn’t lose semantic meaning for native speakers and can be understood like verb that has meaning like “own” or “possess” etc., but “participle” - like adjective, i.e. with adjective meaning. What I mean, for example, when we say “I have broken my phone” it doesn’t mean that I made action ( i.e. “I + verb + noun) but it means I have got my broken phone (meaning - that phone was broken by me) “I +verb + adjective”.[That's right. In other words, and other tense, "I broke my phone"]

    This thought came to me cos because in Old English to make perfect verb form “be” is used instead of “have”, so that we have the next construction: “to be + participle” i.e. meaning verb + adjective. [Example? "I am broken?"?]
    So, how is it in real for native speakers? is it really that verb “have” in perfect verb form does not have any semantic meaning but only shows time and voice?

    Thx advance!


    Best regards,
    Antonio
    Yes. 'have' is used as an auxiliary in compound tenses, and doesn't have it's main verb meaning.
    I can understand your example with "to be". In Old English, it means "I am" - there is some state about me - both as a main verb and an auxiliary. But I don't understand why you think 'have' retains the meaning of 'possess' "I have broken the phone". Certainly, if you have broken your phone you possess a broken phone - but that's one auxiliary use and one main verb use.

    Maybe someone else will understand your point, or let me know if I've missed something. You can at least study my corrections of your post.

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    #3

    Re: Pls, It needs a point of view of native spekers

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    Yes. 'have' is used as an auxiliary in compound tenses, and doesn't have it's main verb meaning.
    I can understand your example with "to be". In Old English, it means "I am" - there is some state about me - both as a main verb and an auxiliary. But I don't understand why you think 'have' retains the meaning of 'possess' "I have broken the phone". Certainly, if you have broken your phone you possess a broken phone - but that's one auxiliary use and one main verb use.

    Maybe someone else will understand your point, or let me know if I've missed something. You can at least study my corrections of your post.

    Thx a lot for your corrections! You understood me very well about “In Old English, it means "I am" - there is some state about me - both as a main verb and an auxiliary” I thought that there was the same situation with perfect form in modern English, i.e. native speakers understand perfect form not lake action, but like some state.
    But I don't understand why you think 'have' retains the meaning of 'possess' –I used this verb to explain what I meant clearly. I wanted to explain that perfect form can reproduce action through state. And think that native speakers understand perfect form like action through state.
    You help me a lot!!! I am very impressed you got me right! I have asked this question many times to different people who have English as native)

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    #4

    Re: Pls, It needs a point of view of native spekers

    You know, it is something like continuous form. For English speaker it is state not time) In my language we reproduce this state through time form. And it makes some troubles in using for some learners. It is very important that people understand foreign language not through their own language.

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    #5

    Re: Pls, It needs a point of view of native spekers

    It doesn't carry the meaning of possess for me. What happens if we say I have broken your phone? I could have the phone in my hand or not, but that's not the point I am making. If I wanted to show possession, I would say I have (got) my broken phone.

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    #6

    Re: Pls, It needs a point of view of native spekers

    you are right! ) I used this meaning in incorrect way )

    thank you again ) by the way did you understand whole my question after reading my second post? )

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