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    #1

    Consonant clusters nt, nd, rt and rd‏. (part II)

    Dear teachers and members:


    II - Another similar case in american English (AmE), like in the first part (part I). It is when the consonant cluster RT (an alviolar approximant plus or followed by an alviolar stop) is intervocalic and the second vowel is unstressed, the voiceless alveolar stop T is lost and the voiced alveolar approximant R becomes an approximant retroflex, thus being the only one pronounced; sounding as follows:



    a) Important / ɪmˈpɔrənt /, party / ˈpɑrɪ /, article / ˈɑrɪkəl /, participle / ˈpɑrəpəl /, started / stɑrɪd /.


    b) It was clear to me / ɪt wəz klɪər ə mi/, I swear to God
    / aɪ swɛər ə ɡɒd /; She likes the imported one / ʃi laɪks ə ɪmˈpɔrɪd wʌn /; you wish to start a business/ ju wɪʃ stɑr ə ˈbɪznɪs /.



    OBSERVANCE:


    1) This words or sentences containing this cluster may be pronounced either as RT or as R in AmE.

    2) Does this process occur because these consonants share the same place of articulation (the alveolar ridge), because one is voiced and the other is voiceless or for what another reason?



    3) I Found that this does not happen when the consonant cluster RT is followed by the gerund form ING in some verbs like:


    Courting / rtɪŋ /, skirting /skɜrtɪŋ /, reverting / rɪrtɪŋ /, alerting / əˈlɜrtɪŋ /.


    4) I also found this does not happen in some verbs when they are in the past or past participle tenses; is this because of the vowel sounds / ɜr/ or another reason?


    Deserted / dɪˈzɜrtɪd /,perverted / rˈvɜrtɪd/, skirted /skɜrtɪd /, alerting / əˈlɜrtɪd/.


    5) Can this process also occur in the case of the voiced consonant cluster RD?; sounding as:


    a) Affordable / əˈfɔrəbəl/, according / əˈkɔrɪŋ /, regarding / rɪˈɡɑrɪŋ/, awarded /əˈwɔrɪd/, order / ˈɔrər /


    b) I figured it out / ˈfɪɡjər ər aʊt/; we had to learn to pronounce / wi hər ə rn prənaʊns /


    Your assistance and help will be deeply appreciated in this matter.


    Sincerely,



    The Apprentice.


    Last edited by The apprentice; 16-Jul-2014 at 22:58. Reason: misspelling

  1. Raymott's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: Consonant clusters nt, nd, rt and rd‏. (part II)

    This is bizarre. Where in America do they talk like this?

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    #3

    Re: Consonant clusters nt, nd, rt and rd‏. (part II)

    Hi, Raymott:

    Raymott, you're not supposed to be american because I'm pretty sure this is common in AmE, please check this video:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY6h804boFs


    1) From 3:24 to 3: 29 '' They're been working hard to make college more affordable for all young people in this country ''. She pronounces the consonant cluster RD in the word AFFORDABLE like that:

    Affordable
    / əˈfɔːrəbəl /

    2) From 3: 44 to 3:48 '' I want you to listen to this ''. She pronounces the NT consonant cluster like that:

    Listen to this / ˈlɪsən ə ɪs /

    3) From 6:44 to 6:47 '' So, it was clear to me ''. She pronounces the RT consonant cluster like that:

    / səʊ, ɪt wəz klɪər ə miː /

    4) From 7:42 to 7:45 '' Most importantly ''. She pronounces the RT consonant cluster like that:

    Importantly
    /ɪmˈpɔːrəntlɪ/


    This is what I mean Raymott.


    Regards,


    The Apprentice.

    Last edited by The apprentice; 18-Nov-2013 at 18:54. Reason: add video and grammar mistake

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    #4

    Re: Consonant clusters nt, nd, rt and rd‏. (part II)

    Hello The Apprentice,

    Yes, a /t/ in an intervocalic NT cluster can sometimes be dropped in an American accent, but I’ve never heard of your RT/D thing, and your phonetic transcriptions of Michelle Obama’s speech are, I’m sorry but I think, simply wrong.

    For example, "affordable" is /əfɔːɚɾəbl/, and "clear to" is /klɪɚ ɾə/.

    An /r/, or more precisely an r-colored vowel /ɚ/, is still there without any change, and /t/ or /d/ is just turned into a famous American alveolar tap /ɾ/. It's pretty much textbook.
    If you see a waveform of those words, you can find a brief closure before the /ɾ/.
    And if you see a spectrogram of those words, you can find the /r/ (or /ɚ/) is still there (the third formant drops at an /r/).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    #5

    Re: Consonant clusters nt, nd, rt and rd‏. (part II)

    Thank you N Senbei for replying;


    Your explanation is very good, but help me in this:

    Regarding the consonant clusters RT and RD in AmE, I have also heard them like R, for example:

    1 - (RT) I was in an party / wəz ɪn ə ˈpɑːrɪ /, Frank Sinatra was a good artist / frŋk sɪˈnɑːtrə wəz ə ɡʊd ˈɑːrɪst /, (here there is a flap d between GOOD and ARTIST), I started to draw when I was 6 / stɑːrɪd drɔː hwɛn wəz sɪks/.

    2 - (RD) they were recording their voice / r rɪˈkɔːrɪŋ ɛər vɔɪs /, He was awarded for his philantropic works / hiː wəz əˈːrɪd fər hɪz fɪlənˈθrɒpɪk wɜːrks /, I'm studying phonetics and phonology in order to learn pronunciation / aɪm ˈstʌdɪŋ fəˈnɛtɪks ən fəˈnɒlədʒ
    iɪn ˈɔːrər lɜːrn prəˌnʌnsɪˈeɪʃən/.

    a) In the sentence: It was clear to me / ɪt wəz klɪər tə miː/, I consider that the /r/ in CLEAR and the /t/ in TO make the consonant cluster RT when linked.

    b) In this sentence: I want you to know /wɒnt nəʊ/ ( from 7:08 to 7:11 in Michelle Obama Speech). I consider that here there is an assimilation between the plosive sound t and the simi vowel or semi consonant sound y, becoming into an africate sound //


    I would also like to know how to join isolated sound into one sound, as in; I want you to know / wɒnnəʊ/, Here I think that the thought group '' I want you to know '' has two sounds.



    Any further explanation will be deeply appreciated.

    Sincerely,



    The Apprentice.

    Last edited by The apprentice; 27-Oct-2014 at 19:58.

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    #6

    Re: Consonant clusters nt, nd, rt and rd‏. (part II)

    I agree with N Senbei, "your phonetic transcriptions of Michelle Obama’s speech are, I’m sorry but I think, simply wrong." Read N Senbei's post again, The Apprentice. The post is talking about the sound produced, not what people might think they hear.

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    #7

    Re: Consonant clusters nt, nd, rt and rd‏. (part II)

    Thaks a lot for your reply 5jj.


    Regards.


    The Apprentice

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    #8

    Re: Consonant clusters nt, nd, rt and rd‏. (part II)

    Hello The Apprentice,

    In an American accent, “/ɚ/ + /t/ + vowel” or “/ɚ/ + /d/ + vowel” can become “/ɚ/ + /ɾ/ + vowel” and this applies to all of your examples.

    party /pɑːɚti/ → / pɑːɚɾi /
    artist /ɑːɚtɪst/ → /ɑːɚɾɪst/
    started /stɑːɚtɪd/ → /stɑːɚɾɪd/
    recording /ɹɪkɔːɚdɪŋ/ → /ɹɪkɔːɚɾɪŋ/
    awarded /əwɔːɚdɪd / → /əwɔːɚɾɪd /
    order /ɔːɚdɚ/ → /ɔːɚɾɚ/
    (You can think /r/, /ɚ/ and /ɹ/ are the same things here.)

    And as I mentioned in the earlier post, “clear to me” is pronounced as /klɪɚ ɾə mi/ in that video.
    By checking the waveforms and spectrogram, you can see “/ɚ/ + closure + /ɾ/.”

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is pure conjecture, but some Spanish speaking people might have some difficulty distinguishing an English /r/ from an alveolar tap /ɾ/, because their mother tongue has an alveolar tap /ɾ/ as their ordinary “r.”

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    #9

    Re: Consonant clusters nt, nd, rt and rd‏. (part II)

    Okay N Sebei:


    Now I understand in your last statement what I mean. I don't think I have any problem with intervocalic alveolar /t/ and /d/ when they become flap/tap; maybe my problem is with the clusters /rt/ and /rd/, because I don't know anything about the
    /ɚ/ sound - which occurs in AmE - and I'm a Spanish speaker as you already said.

    Here in this video from 11:07 to 11:09 '' who was finally awarded ''. / huː wəz ˈfaɪnəlɪ əˈwɔːrɪd /. He says the word awarded this way.

    President Obama Speaks at the 2013 Tribal Nations Conference - YouTube


    Yours truly,




    The Apprentice.

    Last edited by The apprentice; 16-Jul-2014 at 23:08.

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    #10

    Re: Consonant clusters nt, nd, rt and rd‏. (part II)

    It's the same.
    He pronounces "awarded" as /əwɔːɚɾɪd/ in that video.
    A drop of the third formant for an /ɚ/, a brief closure, and then a tapping.

    Click image for larger version. 

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