coherence in person

[ohmyrichard]

Dear teachers,
Please help me with this language issue of preventing unnecessary shifts in person in the sentence. This morning I read in the 2013 Caine Prize winning short story by Tope Folarin, "Miracle", a two-sentence paragraph, which goes, "Some of us raise our hands and praise the Father. A few of us bow our heads, a few of us begin to weep with happiness. " This sentence reminded me of the issue of pronoun reference and I remembered that in English we often say "Some of us raise their hands...", but the author Tope Folarin is a native speaker of English and then I started to doubt my memory. Right afterwards I did some research online and I found that it is very easy to get from webpages sentences like "Some of us actually got to spend their vacations in a little more special way than others." and that it is also easy to get sentences like "Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely." However, these two search results got me confused. Is it that both "our"/ "we" and "their"/"they" can be used to refer back to the subject of "Some of us" or "A few of us"? Then how about when the subject is "All of us"?

Besides, this sentence in "Miracle" right now makes me think of the example sentence in my Basic English Writing coursebook compiled by two Chinese experts of "Those who want to join the chorus should sign your name on this sheet of paper." This part of the coursebook is talking about unnecessary or confusing shifts in person or number in the sentence and the user of the coursebook is advised to change "your name" to "their names". But I doubt whether the sentence of "Those who want to join the chorus should sign your name on this sheet of paper." is 100 % correct and it is what native speakers of English actually use in their daily life or whether it is also correct to change "your name" to "your names".

Please help me with the aforementioned three sentences (the former being a paragraph of two sentences) in terms of preventing unnecessary or confusing shifts in person in the sentence. Thanks a lot.

Richard

 

[5jj]

My take is that the subject of the verbs is 'some' or 'those', and the best forms are:

"Some of us actually got to spend their vacations in a little more special way than others."
"Some of us have tried to hold on to their old ideas and the result was nil until they let go absolutely."
"Those (of you) who want to join the chorus should sign their names on this sheet of paper."


However, I think 'our' in the first two and 'your' in the third are acceptable. Writers of pedantic style guides might worry about this. I don't think the rest of us spend our/their free time agonising over it.

 

[MikeNewYork]

Dear teachers,
Please help me with this language issue of preventing unnecessary shifts in person in the sentence. This morning I read in the 2013 Caine Prize winning short story by Tope Folarin, "Miracle", a two-sentence paragraph, which goes, "Some of us raise our hands and praise the Father. A few of us bow our heads, a few of us begin to weep with happiness. " This sentence reminded me of the issue of pronoun reference and I remembered that in English we often say "Some of us raise their hands...", but the author Tope Folarin is a native speaker of English and then I started to doubt my memory. Right afterwards I did some research online and I found that it is very easy to get from webpages sentences like "Some of us actually got to spend their vacations in a little more special way than others." and that it is also easy to get sentences like "Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely." However, these two search results got me confused. Is it that both "our"/ "we" and "their"/"they" can be used to refer back to the subject of "Some of us" or "A few of us"? Then how about when the subject is "All of us"?

Besides, this sentence in "Miracle" right now makes me think of the example sentence in my Basic English Writing coursebook compiled by two Chinese experts of "Those who want to join the chorus should sign your name on this sheet of paper." This part of the coursebook is talking about unnecessary or confusing shifts in person or number in the sentence and the user of the coursebook is advised to change "your name" to "their names". But I doubt whether the sentence of "Those who want to join the chorus should sign your name on this sheet of paper." is 100 % correct and it is what native speakers of English actually use in their daily life or whether it is also correct to change "your name" to "your names".

Please help me with the aforementioned three sentences (the former being a paragraph of two sentences) in terms of preventing unnecessary or confusing shifts in person in the sentence. Thanks a lot.

Richard

In my opinion, when "we" or "us" occurs in the beginning clause, subsequent clauses should include "our" not "their". When the beginning clause is about "those", subsequent clauses should refer to they/their/them, not "your". When the beginning clause uses "you" or "your", subsequent clauses should use "you/your". When the beginning clause uses "one", subsequent clauses should use "one".

 

[ohmyrichard]

In my opinion, when "we" or "us" occurs in the beginning clause, subsequent clauses should include "our" not "their". When the beginning clause is about "those", subsequent clauses should refer to they/their/them, not "your". When the beginning clause uses "you" or "your", subsequent clauses should use "you/your". When the beginning clause uses "one", subsequent clauses should use "one".

Thanks. But it is obvious that the sentence of "Those who want to join the chorus should sign your name on this sheet of paper." has "of you" omitted after "Those". Do you mean that it is right to say "Those (of you) who want to join the chorus should sign your names on this sheet of paper."? Supposing that you were a teacher giving instructions, what would you say to your students in this situation?

 

[5jj]

". Do you mean that it is right to say "Those (of you) who want to join the chorus should sign your names on this sheet of paper."?

I'll leave Mike to answer for himself. I am answering for me. As I said in my previous post, I think 'your' is acceptable. This is not a question of 'right' or 'wrong', but of personal opinion about syle, in my opinion. Mike and I seem to have different opinions her, but I am not going to lose any sleep over this, and I don't imagine Mike is.

If we were bothered enough, we could probably find a writer of some style guide who would say that one form is better than the other - but that would only be their opinion. There are no firm rules on this.

 

[emsr2d2]

Thanks. But it is obvious that the sentence of "Those who want to join the chorus should sign your name on this sheet of paper." has "of you" omitted after "Those". Do you mean that it is right to say "Those (of you) who want to join the chorus should sign your names on this sheet of paper."?

I find both "your name" and "your names" acceptable. The first suggests that those people signing the form are being considered to be individuals (ie "Each one of you should sign your name) and the second perhaps more part of a collective ("You should all sign your names").

 

[Tdol]

I would use write their names, but am fine with your. I wouldn't use your/their names with sign.

 

[emsr2d2]

I would use write their names, but am fine with your. I wouldn't use your/their names with sign.

Good point.

Those who wish to join the course should sign the form.
Those who wish to join the course should write their/your names on the form.

 

[MikeNewYork]

Thanks. But it is obvious that the sentence of "Those who want to join the chorus should sign your name on this sheet of paper." has "of you" omitted after "Those". Do you mean that it is right to say "Those (of you) who want to join the chorus should sign your names on this sheet of paper."? Supposing that you were a teacher giving instructions, what would you say to your students in this situation?

I agree with 5jj's comments. This is a matter of personal style, not grammar rules. I was just offering an alternative view.

 

[ohmyrichard]

I'll leave Mike to answer for himself. I am answering for me. As I said in my previous post, I think 'your' is acceptable. This is not a question of 'right' or 'wrong', but of personal opinion about syle, in my opinion. Mike and I seem to have different opinions her, but I am not going to lose any sleep over this, and I don't imagine Mike is.

If we were bothered enough, we could probably find a writer of some style guide who would say that one form is better than the other - but that would only be their opinion. There are no firm rules on this.

Thanks, 5jj. I have another related question for you and please help me with it. Can we also say "Those (of you) who want to join the chorus, please come over here and write your name(s) on this sheet of paper."? If we can use this structure of "..., please...", then am I right that in the imperative part of this sentence only the pronoun "your" can be used? Thanks.

 

[Raymott]

I agree with 5jj's comments. This is a matter of personal style, not grammar rules. I was just offering an alternative view.

I agreed with your first post, but you've backtracked.
"Those who want to join should write your name on the list". This, to me, is silly. Shouldn't they write their own names, and leave you and me to write our names if we want to join?
"Those who want join, please write your name on the list." That's OK.
There are a lot of factors.

Lisa: What should we do if we want to join?
Teacher: Those who want to join should write your name on the list.
(Teacher gets back the list. The dozen students who want to join have each written 'Lisa' , as directed.)

I think it is a matter of grammar. You choose the form that means what you want to say/write in the exact context.

 

[MikeNewYork]

I agreed with your first post, but you've backtracked.
"Those who want to join should write your name on the list". This, to me, is silly. Shouldn't they write their own names, and leave you and me to write our names if we want to join?
"Those who want join, please write your name on the list." That's OK.
There are a lot of factors.

Lisa: What should we do if we want to join?
Teacher: Those who want to join should write your name on the list.
(Teacher gets back the list. The dozen students who want to join have each written 'Lisa' , as directed.)

I think it is a matter of grammar. You choose the form that means what you want to say/write in the exact context.

I didn't back track at all. I stand by what I wrote. But I believe that English and English grammar allow for differing points of view. The OP wrote that "Those" could, under certain circumstances, mean "Those of you". In the right context, that is possible. In that context, "you/your" is possible. In other contexts it is not.

A: (to potential students) Ladies and Gentlemen, I know that you are all here to sign up for tutoring sessions. Those who wish to apply for the Monday and Wednesday sessions should sign your names on the blue form. Those who wish to sign up for the Tuesday and Thursday forms should sign your names on the pink form.

B: (to bank employees) Ladies and Gentlemen, as you know we are starting a new loan application process. Those who are applying for a loan should sign their names on the appropriate forms.

I had not taken into account the context in which the people included in "those" were present in the audience.

 

[emsr2d2]

I would give a different answer depending on whether it was being spoken or written.

Written at the top of a sheet of paper, I would happily accept either "your" or "their".
If spoken as an instruction to a room full of people, I would give "Those who want to join should write their name on the form" or "Those of you who want to join should write your name(s) on the form."

 

[ohmyrichard]

I agreed with your first post, but you've backtracked.
"Those who want to join should write your name on the list". This, to me, is silly. Shouldn't they write their own names, and leave you and me to write our names if we want to join?
"Those who want join, please write your name on the list." That's OK.
There are a lot of factors.

Lisa: What should we do if we want to join?
Teacher: Those who want to join should write your name on the list.
(Teacher gets back the list. The dozen students who want to join have each written 'Lisa' , as directed.)

I think it is a matter of grammar. You choose the form that means what you want to say/write in the exact context.

Hi,Raymott. Can we change the situation you imagined a little bit as follows:

Lisa: What should we do if we want to join?
Teacher(intead of addressing Lisa alone turns to all the students present): Those who want to join the chorus should write your/their name(s) on the list (OR Those who want to join the chorus, please write your name or names on the list).
(Teacher gets back the list. The dozen students who want to join have written their names,Liza's name included, as directed.)

OR modify the situation you imagined like this:

Teacher (comes into the classroom and makes the announcement to the whole class): Those who want to join the chorus should write your name(s)/ their names on the list (OR Those who want to join the chorus, please write your name or names on the list).
(Teacher gets back the list. The dozen students who want to join have written their names, as directed.)

 

[ohmyrichard]

If spoken as an instruction to a room full of people, I would give "Those who want to join should write their name on the form" or "Those of you who want to join should write your name(s) on the form."

Why not "Those who want to join should write their names on the form"?

 

[emsr2d2]

Why not "Those who want to join should write their names on the form"?

Because most of us don't say "My names are XXX XXX". We say "My name is ...". So each person will write their name. This does not mean that they should simply write one name.

 

[Raymott]

Yes, I accept all the points that criticise my opinion.
I will stick to saying that:
"Those who want to join should add their name to the list" and "Those of you who want to join should add your name to the list" are the both appropriate forms.
I don't like "Those who want to join should add your name". This might be from AusE usage.
And as I and others have said, there are a lot of different factors in speaking and writing this concept that would suggest one alternative over another.

 

[Raymott]

Hi,Raymott. Can we change the situation you imagined a little bit as follows:

Lisa: What should we do if we want to join?
Teacher(intead of addressing Lisa alone turns to all the students present): Those who want to join the chorus should write [STRIKE]your[/STRIKE]/their name(s) on the list (OR Those who want to join the chorus, please write your name or names on the list).
(Teacher gets back the list. The dozen students who want to join have written their names, Liza's name included, as directed.)
Yes, that is probably what would happen. I still don't like the idea of those who want to join adding your name.

OR modify the situation you imagined like this:

Teacher (comes into the classroom and makes the announcement to the whole class): Those who want to join the chorus should write [STRIKE]your name(s)[/STRIKE]/ their names on the list (OR Those who want to join the chorus, please write your name or names on the list). Yes, this one's OK. There's a subtle difference here. The teacher is addressing those interested as "Those who want to join", then saying to them, "please add your name".

(Teacher gets back the list. The dozen students who want to join have written their names, as directed.)

As far as the outcome goes, I'm sure that the teacher could say almost anything and get an appropriate response.
"Want to join the choir? Add your name to the list."
"There's a list on the door for those who want to join the choir."
"Fill in the choir list if you're interested."

But if he's describing what students should do if they are interested, they should add their name, not "your" name.

 

[5jj]

This is the 19th post in this thread. :shock:

I have to say that, in my opinion, most native speakers would not notice whether someone said 'your' or 'their' , or 'name' or 'names'.

 

[Raymott]

This is the 19th post in this thread. :shock:

And this is the 20th. Yes, it's a popular thread if that's the point you're making.
But #17 and #18 were responses to the ongoing question of the OP in #14. If I need to follow up a question specifically to me, and a dozen people post while I'm asleep, what can I do? The next post will be #21.