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  1. Barb_D's Avatar
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    #1

    Differences between hope and want

    Okay, I came across a grammar thing that I can't figure out.

    She wants a pony. -- No problem - "wants" is a transitive verb and "a pony" is clearly a noun phrase, the object of "wants." All good.
    She wants to visit Italy. -- Starting to get confused. "to visit Italy" is... what? it has to act as a noun phrase, doesn't it? It's an infinitive phrase?

    She hopes for the best. -- This seems to be an intrastive use of "hope"? Is it?
    She hopes to visit Italy.

    She hopes [that] she wins the trip to Italy.

    Okay - really confused on the grammar at this point. What is what? Is "to visit Italy" the same as above or is "hope to" somehow linked?

    I know that this doesn't create a single issue regarding my comprehension, but it annoys me when I can't figure out the grammar. Need one of you real teachers to help me out on this, please.
    Thanks!
    I'm not a teacher, but I write for a living. Please don't ask me about 2nd conditionals, but I'm a safe bet for what reads well in (American) English.

  2. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: Differences between hope and want

    Quote Originally Posted by Barb_D View Post
    Okay, I came across a grammar thing that I can't figure out.

    She wants a pony. -- No problem - "wants" is a transitive verb and "a pony" is clearly a noun phrase, the object of "wants." All good.
    She wants to visit Italy. -- Starting to get confused. "to visit Italy" is... what? it has to act as a noun phrase, doesn't it? It's an infinitive phrase?

    She hopes for the best. -- This seems to be an intrastive use of "hope"? Is it?
    She hopes to visit Italy.

    She hopes [that] she wins the trip to Italy.

    Okay - really confused on the grammar at this point. What is what? Is "to visit Italy" the same as above or is "hope to" somehow linked?

    I know that this doesn't create a single issue regarding my comprehension, but it annoys me when I can't figure out the grammar. Need one of you real teachers to help me out on this, please.
    Thanks!
    1. Yes. Transitive use of "want".
    2. Yes. Transitive use of "want". "To visit Italy" is an infinitive phrase acting as the noun-object of "want".

    3. Yes. Intransitive us of "hope".
    4. Transitive use of "hope". "To visit Italy" is an infinitive phrase acting as the noun-object of "hope".
    5. Transitive use of "hope". The phrase "[that] she wins the trip to Italy" is a noun phrase acting as the object of "hope".

    If there is any confusion here it stems from those who see "hope for" and "hope to" as phrasal verbs. In my opinion, they are not phrasal verbs.

  3. 5jj's Avatar
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    #3

    Re: Differences between hope and want

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    1. Yes. Transitive use of "want".
    2. Yes. Transitive use of "want". "To visit Italy" is an infinitive phrase acting as the noun-object of "want".
    I agree, though I know there are other ways of analysing #2.
    3. Yes. Intransitive us of "hope".
    4. Transitive use of "hope". "To visit Italy" is an infinitive phrase acting as the noun-object of "hope".
    I don't agree. You can want a pony or want a visit to Italy, but you can't hope a pony or hope a vist to Italy. I think that the 'to vist Italy' after 'hope' is qualitatively different from the 'to visit Italy' after 'want'. However, I am not at home with my grammars, so I cannot consult the experts (I don't have much faith in internet grammars.)

  4. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #4

    Re: Differences between hope and want

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    I agree, though I know there are other ways of analysing #2.I don't agree. You can want a pony or want a visit to Italy, but you can't hope a pony or hope a vist to Italy. I think that the 'to vist Italy' after 'hope' is qualitatively different from the 'to visit Italy' after 'want'. However, I am not at home with my grammars, so I cannot consult the experts (I don't have much faith in internet grammars.)
    In my view, it is the different ways of analyzing these constructions cause the confusion. However, there is not one way that came down on stone tablets from the Mount. I can only analyze things as I see them.

    I agree that one cannot hope a pony or a visit. But one can hope "to do something", hope "to see something", hope "for something", hope "that something happens". "To hope for rain" is not that same as "to hope rain". "To hope to visit" is not the same as "to hope (a) visit.

    But I would love to hear alternative views.

    One of the most complicated sentences to analyze is perhaps the simplest sentence of all: See Spot run. Three words and I have heard several different analyses of this simple sentence. Do you have an opinion about that?

  5. 5jj's Avatar
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    #5

    Re: Differences between hope and want

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    See Spot run. Three words and I have heard several different analyses of this simple sentence. Do you have an opinion about that?
    My main area of interest is verb tenses. When I discuss other topics I sometimes get out of my depth, so I shall withdraw quietly while at least part of me is still dry.
    Last edited by Rover_KE; 12-Dec-2013 at 09:54. Reason: Fixing typo

  6. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #6

    Re: Differences between hope and want

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    My main area of interest is verb tenses. When I discuss other topics I sometimes get out of my depth, so I shall withdraw quietly while at least pasrt of me is still dry.
    You are very gifted in many areas. Don't be over-humble. I love reading your answers.

  7. Barb_D's Avatar
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    #7

    Re: Differences between hope and want

    I feel a little better knowing that the "hope" stuff isn't completely obvious.
    I'm not a teacher, but I write for a living. Please don't ask me about 2nd conditionals, but I'm a safe bet for what reads well in (American) English.

  8. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #8

    Re: Differences between hope and want

    Quote Originally Posted by Barb_D View Post
    I feel a little better knowing that the "hope" stuff isn't completely obvious.
    You shouldn't feel bad at all.

  9. Barb_D's Avatar
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    #9

    Re: Differences between hope and want

    This started because in another forum someone has said that in the sentence "She want to buy [something - I can't remember what]" the "to buy [whatever]" is a clause. And I've certainly been taught that "to buy a pony" is not a clause because it lacks a subject and a finite verb. So that was one issue. But then I started thinking about "She hopes to buy a pony" versus "She wants to buy a pony" and "She wants a pony" versus "She hopes a pony" and got confused.
    I'm not a teacher, but I write for a living. Please don't ask me about 2nd conditionals, but I'm a safe bet for what reads well in (American) English.

  10. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #10

    Re: Differences between hope and want

    Quote Originally Posted by Barb_D View Post
    This started because in another forum someone has said that in the sentence "She want to buy [something - I can't remember what]" the "to buy [whatever]" is a clause. And I've certainly been taught that "to buy a pony" is not a clause because it lacks a subject and a finite verb. So that was one issue. But then I started thinking about "She hopes to buy a pony" versus "She wants to buy a pony" and "She wants a pony" versus "She hopes a pony" and got confused.
    In both cases, the words that follow the verb is a noun. "A pony" and "to buy a pony" -- both answer the question "what does she she want?"
    With hope it is the same. What did she hope?

    I was taught often about about parts of speech, and I was taught to determine those by what questions are being answered by a particular word or phrase.

    Some people analyze grammar differently. They see non-finite verbs as having clauses instead of phrases. I part company with them on that.

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