would would

Status
Not open for further replies.

atabitaraf

Key Member
Joined
May 19, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
Mr. Farraj. a reliable man, would certainly keep his appointment yesterday but his car wouldn't start and he was unable to get a taxi.

I don't know why the first would is considered wrong but the second one has no problem. Would you please give me the grammar point here? Thanks.

The correct form of the first would is said to be 'would certainly have said'
 

MikeNewYork

VIP Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
One cannot say "would (certainly) keep" an appointment in the past. "Would (certainly) have kept" is the correct tense.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

atabitaraf

Key Member
Joined
May 19, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
Thank you, but you just said what I said, my problem is that I don't know the reason why the first would is wrong and the second one is correct.
Why can't we say "would + have + p.p." for the both of them?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Rover_KE

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
Mike did not say what you said. He changed 'would certainly keep' to 'would certainly have kept'.

Who told you the first 'would' is wrong? It isn't. They are both right.

'...his car would not start' means 'he was unable to start his car'.
 

atabitaraf

Key Member
Joined
May 19, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
My question is: Talking about a past event, when should I use 'would' and when 'would + have + p.p.'?
Thanks,
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
If we are talking about past habitual situations, we can use would. When I was a child, I would spend hours in the woods, just walking and dreaming.
If we are talking about past insistence, we can use would. I told him it was silly, but he would take the bet.
If we are talking about a future in the past, we can use would. Napoleon arrived on Saint Helena in 1815. He would never leave the island.


If we are talking about a hypothetical situation, one that did not happen, we can use would have. He would have kept his appointment if his car had started.
 

atabitaraf

Key Member
Joined
May 19, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
Thanks a million. It was so useful to me.
Can I say if it is imaginary, use 'would have p.p.' and if it is not imaginary (or real), use 'would'?
 
Last edited:

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Not in every case.

I think John was in Latvia last week. If so, he would have got caught in that terrible storm.


In that sentence, the speaker is expressing a degree of certainty that John was caught in the storm if he was in Latvia.
 

Raymott

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
Australia
Current Location
Australia
Who told you the first 'would' is wrong? It isn't. They are both right.
"Mr. Farraj. a reliable man, would certainly keep his appointment yesterday but his car wouldn't start and he was unable to get a taxi."
I can't see how the first 'would' in the above sentence is right. 5jj hasn't commented on it specifically. Yes, you can use 'would' in the past, but this is not an example.
While I agree with 5jj - "If we are talking about a hypothetical situation, one that did not happen, we can use would have. He would have kept his appointment if his car had started" - I think it's necessary to go further and say you can't use just 'would'. Am I missing something?
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Mike said in post #2 that the first 'would' was not possible, so I did not comment further.
I think it's necessary to go further and say you can't use just 'would'. Am I missing something?
In post #6, I was giving some examples of when we can use the two forms. I did not want to go on to when we can't use them - the list would have become enormous.
 

Raymott

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
Australia
Current Location
Australia
I did not want to go on to when we can't use them - the list would have become enormous.
Yes, one wouldn't list all cases that aren't right. But the OP's specific question was, "Is the first 'would' wrong?" Since other moderator/teachers have disagreed in their advice, that is one wrong form that I think could have been mentioned. But my post was more to clarify the answer to the OP's question than to criticise you for not taking a position on it.
 
Last edited:

charliedeut

VIP Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Spanish
Home Country
Spain
Current Location
Spain
Mike did not say what you said. He changed 'would certainly keep' to 'would certainly have kept'.
Who told you the first 'would' is wrong? It isn't. They are both right.
'...his car would not start' means 'he was unable to start his car'.


"Mr. Farraj. a reliable man, would certainly keep his appointment yesterday but his car wouldn't start and he was unable to get a taxi."
I can't see how the first 'would' in the above sentence is right.

As I see it, Rover just sounded slightly contradictory. As Mike had said, the first tense needed be changed to "would have + p.p." From there, assuming the change, Rovedr just stated that both uses of "would" were correct. But always keeping in mind Mike's amendment.

PS: I don't know if I made my point clear enough. It would have been easier to understand if a native (or Rover himself) had explained it, methinks. ;-)
 

Roman55

Key Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Italy
Current Location
France
I am not a teacher.

The first "would" ought to be the past conditional of keep, "would have kept", and the second "would" is the past tense of will.
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
That's if you accept the 'past conditional' as a tense, which I don't.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top