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    #1

    National park, Monument - are there any rules for articles?

    We know that recreation places are generally used with 'the' (the Odeon cinema, the British Museum).
    In our grammar book as well as in some publications the following places are without articles (though the main noun in them is a common noun which would require an article): National Dinosaur Monument, Yellowstone National Park, Everglades National Park.
    Like that: In Yellowstone National park you can see more than 200 geysers./
    The landscape of present-day Yellowstone National Park is the most recent manifestation of this hotspot...
    However, in some places you can see:
    There was considerable local opposition to the Yellowstone National Park during its early years.

    How should we use such names - with 'the' or without? Are there any rules? Which way is correct?
    Thank you for your attention.

  1. Raymott's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: National park, Monument - are there any rules for articles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo4755 View Post
    We know that recreation places are generally used with 'the' (the Odeon cinema, the British Museum).
    Too many posts begin with "We know ..." when, not only don't we know it, it isn't true. Could I suggest, "As I've been told ..." or "It seems that ..." One of the problems with the "We know ..." opening is that it can give students the idea that it's correct, which it often isn't.
    National parks in Australia usually don't take "the", eg. "I'm going to Kakadu, Uluru, Warrambungles, Carvarvon Gorge..."
    Nor do all recreational places - which is a broad term. I'm going to Bondi (beach), Seaworld, Disneyland, Cloudland (a nightclub). In fact I'd say that most nightclubs don't take "the". Your point about cinemas and museums is correct for most such places - but it's incorrect to generalise from these to "recreational places" in general, since recreation is such a diverse activity.
    Last edited by Raymott; 19-Jun-2014 at 11:47. Reason: add a Capital

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    #3

    Re: National park, Monument - are there any rules for articles?

    Could I suggest, "As I've been told ..." or "It seems that ..."
    OK - As I have been told by the well-known section of Murphy Grammar in Use (as well as many other grammar books of respectful origins - this is why by "we know" I actually meant "we are taught and we are supposed to teach the students that way") places of recreation go with 'the'.
    The point is the rule concerns only the names which include common nouns (otherwise it makes no sense to speak about an article with a given name like Disneyland or Seaworld. The question is about places like Disneyland park or Disney land - where the main noun is not a name.

    Your point about cinemas and museums is correct for most such places
    Not my point. A stated grammar rule. Or if you please an official generalization. The names of such places can follow it or... not follow it. So the question is about recreations outside towns - whether they are named following any rules. If so, I would very much like to find such rules in grammars or reference books.

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    #4

    Re: National park, Monument - are there any rules for articles?

    There are no real "rules", there are tendencies.

    The tendency, for example, in referring to universities is to not use "the" if the school name begins with a place name: Washington State University, Texas A&M University. But there is The Ohio State University. Articles are tough and their uses are quirky.

    In response to your "We know" comment, I offer what Mark Twain said, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

  3. Raymott's Avatar
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    #5

    Re: National park, Monument - are there any rules for articles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo4755 View Post
    I actually meant "we are taught and we are supposed to teach the students that way") places of recreation go with 'the'.
    OK. The huge advantage of a site like this is that you can converse with people who can tell you when what you are taught, and what you are taught to teach, is wrong. You can't a have a conversion with a grammar book, and that's why you often get generalisations that aren't as true as you'd like them to be.
    Places of recreation do not always use "the", as I've demonstrated - and perhaps don't usually use "the", depending on how you define a place of recreation.

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    #6

    Re: National park, Monument - are there any rules for articles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo4755 View Post
    So the question is about recreations outside towns - whether they are named following any rules. If so, I would very much like to find such rules in grammars or reference books.
    I'm afraid that is not how it works- even the rules governing things bigger than these are subject to exceptions.

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    #7

    Re: National park, Monument - are there any rules for articles?

    the rules governing things bigger than these are subject to exceptions
    That goes without saying.
    But! This is not the point.
    To pass their TOEFLs and ECLs students must know their grammar as far as Blue Murphy goes.
    It states:
    https://yadi.sk/d/-kvDiJh5C7sSb
    (page 154)
    (the same is said in all good grammar books and Students' books. It's all in the curriculum of any language school.)

    Students must know these rules. Sometimes it is my job to see that they do. If they are asked how names of museums and monuments are usually used - with an article or without - they should say 'with the'. If they are asked how streets are named they should say 'without any article'. If in a test they have to put an article before an unfamiliar monument or museum, they should put 'the'.
    1) What I really wanted to know is if there are any similar rules about national parks. I suppose there aren't or anybody would know something.
    2) The lack of article with names of national parks is still a mystery because Yellowstone is a name and can do whatever it wants, but 'park' is a common noun and should have an article (the Yellowstone National park). My guess is that the expression got stuck in the group of geographical markers together with 'road', 'street' etc which are delexicalized (what's the word?!!) in combination with the name of a road or a street itself so that the whole expression is not an expression any more but a single name. However, some people use an article and some don't with the same national park.
    Last edited by Romeo4755; 20-Jun-2014 at 23:45.

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    #8

    Re: National park, Monument - are there any rules for articles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo4755 View Post
    To pass their TOEFLs and ECLs students must know their grammar as far as Blue Murphy goes.
    "Ah, so, "The Blue Murphy tells us ...", "For the purposes of the TOEFL and ECLs, reacreation places are ..."
    It states:
    https://yadi.sk/d/-kvDiJh5C7sSb
    (page 154)
    The link leads to a photo of the book's cover. Could you provide a link to p.154, or give a quote?

    (the same is said in all good grammar books and Students' books. It's all in the curriculum of any language school.)
    The same is not said in all good grammar books, unless you define a "good grammar book" as one which says this. It's also not in the curriculum of "any language school". You are speaking in absolutes, where they don't actually exist. I'll go out on a limb here and assume that you mean "any good grammar book whose aim it is to provide rules for the TOEFL exams." and "those language schools which I know of".

    I apologise for questioning your use of "We know". I understand now what you meant. Unfortunately, Blue Murphy is not the font of all knowledge about English grammar, even though it may be the Bible to markers of exams. You must realise that many people come here to learn how English is actually spoken; it's sometimes difficult to know whether a poster wants to know a basic rule that's easy to remember or the truth.

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