Results 1 to 9 of 9
  1. Yonsu99's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Korean
      • Home Country:
      • China
      • Current Location:
      • South Korea

    • Join Date: Jul 2014
    • Posts: 35
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #1

    It is only by ~that clause

    "It is only by thinking about their interrelationship that we can understand processes of creativity and cultural change." (Creativity, Communication and Cultural Value)

    I think the above sentence is the same meaning as the following
    : We can understand processes of creativity and cultural change only by thinking about their interrelationship.

    But I think 'That we can understand processes of creativity and cultural change is only by thinking about their interrelationship.' is incorrect. And in this reason I think "It is only by thinking about their interrelationship that we can understand processes of creativity and cultural change." is not correct either.

    Do you consider "It is only by thinking~that we can understand processes..." correct? Is it common to use "It is only by ~that clause"?

  2. Raymott's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Australia
      • Current Location:
      • Australia

    • Join Date: Jun 2008
    • Posts: 23,265
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #2

    Re: It is only by ~that clause

    Quote Originally Posted by Yonsu99 View Post
    1. "It is only by thinking about their interrelationship that we can understand processes of creativity and cultural change." (Creativity, Communication and Cultural Value)

    I think the above sentence is the same meaning as the following
    2.: We can understand processes of creativity and cultural change only by thinking about their interrelationship.
    Yes, this means the same thing.

    But I think 3.'That we can understand processes of creativity and cultural change is only by thinking about their interrelationship.' is incorrect.
    Yes, it's incorrect, grammatically.
    And for this reason I think 4. "It is only by thinking about their interrelationship that we can understand processes of creativity and cultural change." is not correct either.
    A few points: you need 'for', and you haven't given a reason why 3. is wrong, so saying "And for this reason 4. is wrong" doesn't help. In fact 4. is correct.


    Do you consider "It is only by thinking~that we can understand processes..." correct? Is it common to use "It is only by ~that clause"?
    We don't use '~' in English, so I don't know what you last line means. Could you rewrite it in English notation?
    Also, could you say why you think 3 is incorrect, so that we can apply that reason to 4 to see if 4 is incorrect?

  3. Yonsu99's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Korean
      • Home Country:
      • China
      • Current Location:
      • South Korea

    • Join Date: Jul 2014
    • Posts: 35
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #3

    Re: It is only by ~that clause

    Okay, Raymott.
    1."It is only by thinking about their interrelationship that we can understand processes of creativity and cultural change."
    3.'That we can understand processes of creativity and cultural change is only by thinking about their interrelationship.' is incorrect.


    I think 1 is cleft sentence made from 3, and since its origin(3) is wrong, the result(1) is also wrong.

    Michael Jackson popularized the moon-walk step. It is Michael Jackson who popularized the moon-walk step.(Cleft sentence)

  4. Raymott's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Australia
      • Current Location:
      • Australia

    • Join Date: Jun 2008
    • Posts: 23,265
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #4

    Re: It is only by ~that clause

    OK. 1. "That I look after is my cat." (Wrong grammar). Let's cleave it -> 2. "It is my cat that I look after." (Right grammar, cleft).
    3. "I look after my cat" (Correct version of non-cleft sentence, that also generates 2. when cleaved)

    In making the cleft sentence from 3. - if you did - you have managed to put it into a correct grammatical structure. Your 1. above is correct.
    Your sentence 3 is wrong. But it could have been right, just as the cat sentence can be put right.
    "We can understand the processes of creativity and cultural change only by thinking about their interrelationship." (Correct version of your 3. which also generates your 1. as a correct cleft sentence.)

    There are different types and structures of both cleft and non-cleft sentences. If you cleave or uncleave a certain sentence, there is no guarantee that it will remain in the same grammatical state. So your 1. is not wrong just because your 3 is. Similarly, my 2. is not wrong simply because my 1. is.
    So your first two sentences in the original post are a correct cleft and non-cleft pair.
    And yes, cleft sentence are often used in English, but we don't write a non-cleft sentence first and then cleave it.

  5. BobK's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Jul 2006
    • Posts: 16,035
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #5

    Re: It is only by ~that clause

    Quote Originally Posted by Yonsu99 View Post
    ...Do you consider "It is only by thinking~that we can understand processes..." correct? Is it common to use "It is only by ~that clause"?
    What I, or anyone, considers is irrelevant. As native speakers of English, we simply know that the usage is just right. Please desist from the 'But it's obviously wrong; I know' line.

    b

  6. tzfujimino's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Japanese
      • Home Country:
      • Japan
      • Current Location:
      • Japan

    • Join Date: Dec 2007
    • Posts: 2,422
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #6

    Re: It is only by ~that clause

    Hello, yonsu.

    Please look at these sentences below.

    1. It is probable that we'll be a little late.
    2. It is my cat that I looked after.

    #1 and #2 use different constructions.
    In #1, the 'that' is a conjunction introducing a noun clause and therefore it makes sense if it is converted into:
    That we'll be a little late is probable.

    However, it doesn't work with #2, because the 'that' there is not the same as the one used in #1 - 'that I looked after' is not a noun clause.

  7. BobK's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Jul 2006
    • Posts: 16,035
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #7

    Re: It is only by ~that clause

    Yes. Do you think you could say more about the different sorts of that?

    b

  8. tzfujimino's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Japanese
      • Home Country:
      • Japan
      • Current Location:
      • Japan

    • Join Date: Dec 2007
    • Posts: 2,422
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #8

    Re: It is only by ~that clause

    Quote Originally Posted by BobK View Post
    Yes. Do you think you could say more about the different sorts of that?

    b
    Well, I have to say that my knowledge about the matter is quite limited. (I'm not a grammarian.)

    As for the 'that' in #2 in my previous post, I think it is a special kind of 'relative pronoun'.
    - used to introduce a group of words that limits the meaning of a noun especially to a specific person, place, or thing
    The person that [=who] won the race also won last year.
    I'm no longer the man that I used to be.
    Is it me that you are looking for?
    http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/that
    Michael Swan, in his Practical English Usage Third Edition (on page 108), writes:

    We can use prepartory it in cleft sentences. The words to be emphasised are usually joined to the relative clause by that.
    This is all I can say/do about it.

  9. BobK's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Jul 2006
    • Posts: 16,035
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #9

    Re: It is only by ~that clause

    ( though I'm not sure I'd agree with your "special kind of 'relative pronoun'"). There are three sorts of 'that'; a subordinating conjunction ('I said that he was ready'), a demonstrative adjective ('I want that one') and a demonstrative pronoun ('Don't do that').

    (But I'm not great in matters of grammar, so would welcome other teachers' corrections of my terminology [which may well not use the latest buzzwords - heck, I still say things like 'pluperfect'!])

    Of those three, only the first one can be reduced to /ət/ - but not always, of course.

    b

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 21-Apr-2011, 23:17
  2. if clause pst siple dependant clause future
    By ostap77 in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-Mar-2011, 17:31
  3. formal writing : verbless clause and absolute clause
    By duiter in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 22-Sep-2010, 02:28
  4. [Grammar] comparing about adverbial clause and adjectival clause
    By luzal in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 20-Aug-2010, 18:40
  5. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 27-Apr-2010, 15:13

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •