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    #1

    Post Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

    We have problems with calling some manners of use verbs (including auxiliary verbs) in a manner that is not suitable and consistent with the concepts being represented. I have added some opinions to this matter and left many questions unanswered, but then I've been asking for help from people (at local universities etc.) for a reason :p

    http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Darre...With_Verbs.php

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    #2

    Re: Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

    I don't see that there's much of a point to be made in choosing to describe very as an adjective in the phrase very bright, nor why that is better than calling it an adverb. The argument's a bit circular IMO.
    Last edited by Tdol; 01-Feb-2015 at 12:11. Reason: typo

  1. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #3

    Re: Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

    I agree. There is no question that "very" is an adverb in that phrase. It clearly modifies the adjective "bright" and an adjective cannot do that.

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    #4

    Re: Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    I agree. There is no question that "very" is an adverb in that phrase. It clearly modifies the adjective "bright" and an adjective cannot do that.
    Adverbs are caused by properties of things of happening, not things in general or their properties.

    Words such as very and quite modify such properties themselves - ALL types of properties of any and all relevant concepts - that the English language has and uses, including those used as adverbs, as I showed.

    (Do we define words used as determiners as things, used as nouns? No - we recognise them to be a separate concept causing a separate manner of use, used in combination. The same situation exists here. (Note that I haven't examined determiners yet, so I cannot say for certain that they are caused by only a single concept or not, for now.)

    We cannot therefore define and describe the concept and manner of use they belong to as being the same as any such property, in themselves. To do so, is to deny the very difference and relationship they have, and therefore their very existence, (of such an application).

    Again: semantic meaning != syntactic application. Anytime we confuse these two things - language cannot exist and function.

    Such is the nature of the problems we have, that this, unfortunately, is a very common occurrence - but more on exactly how and why this is, in the next part of my blog - (which should help a great deal) - (Part 4: Managing The Complexity Of English Grammar).

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    #5

    Re: Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

    I don't have any problems. I am well aware of the parts of speech and what each part of speech is used for. I don't know where you are getting the rest of this stuff from, but "very" is clearly an adverb in that use. It needs not be more complicated than that.

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    #6

    Re: Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    I don't have any problems. I am well aware of the parts of speech and what each part of speech is used for. I don't know where you are getting the rest of this stuff from, but "very" is clearly an adverb in that use. It needs not be more complicated than that.
    If you were that aware - you would understand the problems we have, which you obviously do not.

    Again, manners of use are only relevant because of the basic concepts that cause them. Without a consistent relationship between the two, they they have no reason to exist at all - at which point language, itself, no longer exists.

    The basic problems we have, are caused by an inconsistent perception of the language that does not reflect the differences in such concepts and the manners of use they enable - meaning our understanding of the rules the language has in governing both is inconsistent - both inaccurate and incomplete.

    Unfortunately, such a perception reinforces our description and teaching of language in a manner that merely furthers this perception itself - causing a negative-feedback-loop.

    If you do not recognise and understand how and why adverbs can only be recognised and understood to be caused by the concept of properties of things of happening, then your understanding of English, either in itself or as an application of language in general, is flawed.

    As I said in a previous part of my blog - there are over 60 basic concepts in the functional taxonomic hierarchy of the English language. If we do not recognise such concepts, especially when the manner of use they cause must be different from those we currently recognise - e.g. used in syntactic combination with other, different, concepts - then we do not fully know and understand the language at all. Even I cannot give a precise amount, because even I do not know exactly how we wish to recognise and treat every possible concept and manner of use they enable - or even how some of them should be described as they exist within such a hierarchy itself.

    If we refuse to recognise concepts that exist in such a manner, however, then we deserve all the problems we get.

    Which is why my blog post this is in reply to, has more questions, and mainly suggested answers, except when they're consistent with the foundations we already have, according to the basic concepts and their manners of use.

    Anyone who refuses to consistently recognise, or has a perception inconsistent with, the difference and relationship between semantics and syntactics, can have no consistent understanding of language at all - ever.

    Such is the nature of the problems we have...
    Last edited by DarrenTomlyn; 31-Jan-2015 at 23:56. Reason: left out a word :p

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    #7

    Re: Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

    "If were that aware". That is not grammatical.

    With all respect, most of your post is high-sounding mumbo-jumbo. It is of no use to anybody to needlessly complicate grammar. Individuals have been trying to do that for decades. Yet English grammar motors on. It is relatively simple if one accepts it as it is.

    You keep talking about the "problems" we have. I don't see or have any problems. Do you?

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    #8

    Re: Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    "If were that aware". That is not grammatical.


    Oops - my bad. I sometimes type too fast and don't notice I get ahead of my thoughts :p

    With all respect, most of your post is high-sounding mumbo-jumbo. It is of no use to anybody to needlessly complicate grammar. Individuals have been trying to do that for decades. Yet English grammar motors on. It is relatively simple if one accepts it as it is.

    You keep talking about the "problems" we have. I don't see or have any problems. Do you?


    English grammar IS complicated whether you like it or not, the questions are how and why that is so. The problem we have, is that its complexity is not being managed at all.

    As I said, you need to wait until my next part to fully understand, but what we've done is refuse to replace complexity in communication for complexity in grammar/content - which language is supposed to do, and which is why we're confused between the two (communication & language).

    Section 1 of my blog is about the basic problems we have, (especially in relation to things of happening so far, for a good reason), and it isn't finished yet...
    Last edited by DarrenTomlyn; 01-Feb-2015 at 02:19.

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    #9

    Re: Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

    Quote Originally Posted by DarrenTomlyn View Post
    If you do not recognise and understand how and why adverbs can only be recognised and understood to be caused by the concept of properties of things of happening, then your understanding of English, either in itself or as an application of language in general, is flawed.
    You are unilaterally declaring this to be the case. However this is not how adverbs have been defined for centuries. To be frank the concept of properties of things of happening is far too vague. I have read your piece and am no more in the light. Most people manage to get through life without knowing that yes is an adverb (modifying a sentence) in the conventional terminology. Most learners manage to get it quite easily without knowing it either. I am guessing that it is not a property of things of happening, though could equally be wrong on that, and guess that people could get by without knowing that too.

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    #10

    Re: Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    You are unilaterally declaring this to be the case. However this is not how adverbs have been defined for centuries. To be frank the concept of properties of things of happening is far too vague.
    If that is too vague, then ALL language is too vague - I'm sorry but either words have specific enough meaning or they're not relevant at all - at which point we might aswell deny communication itself.


    I have read your piece and am no more in the light. Most people manage to get through life without knowing that yes is an adverb (modifying a sentence) in the conventional terminology. Most learners manage to get it quite easily without knowing it either. I am guessing that it is not a property of things of happening, though could equally be wrong on that, and guess that people could get by without knowing that too.
    If you do not understand how and why a consistent and thorough understanding of language helps us understand far more than just the language itself, then you deny its very reason to exist. Yes, my blog exists for some very specific reasons - to deal with some very specific problems - (our understanding of games, especially in relation to other, similar types of thing) - but I have no doubt at all that there will be far more numerous symptoms of the problems we have that are, and never have been recognised and understood to exist, and won't, until our knowledge and understanding is more consistent.

    Just as an understanding of mathematics is necessary for our understanding of science, our understanding of language underlies our recognition and understanding of pretty much everything we use it to represent.

    Language is all about relationships and similarities - if we don't understand the basics of these, then of course we'll have problems - if we don't WANT to know and understand, then why bother using it in the first place?

    EDIT: One of the reasons you still fail to recognise and understand the true nature of the problems we have, is that, again, as I said before, I have yet to completely describe all the symptoms of the problems we have, and so inform everyone exactly WHY the descriptions of the basic types of concepts (as listed in part 2) truly matter in relation to the basic rules of the language itself, and therefore understand why getting confused between different concepts that should be OBVIOUSLY used in a different manner, is so problematic.

    Hint: There are other concepts in the language that ONLY exist in relation to the three most basic concepts of their type, and our current, mistaken, understanding and description of them is DIRECTLY affecting our recognition and understanding of those that are so related.

    E.g. If we do not perceive, recognise and understand addition and subtraction properly, then it should be no surprise when our understanding of multiplication and division is problematic, especially if we try and describe them as being the same thing!
    Last edited by DarrenTomlyn; 01-Feb-2015 at 13:12.

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