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  1. nininaz's Avatar
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    #1

    Question I saw Jim swimming

    Hello Dear Teachers,
    "I saw Jim swimming".
    Is "swimming" participle ?! Do we have the adjective reduction in this sentence, which is " I saw Jim who was swimming", and reduced to "I saw Jim swimming".

    If it serves as participle why in the link inserted it was considered as Gerund that has the role of the object complement?!
    In the link mentioned : "I saw Jim riding bike". riding is gerund and serves as the object (Jim) complement.
    Oh, I am getting exhausted about lost of controversy in different sources. I wish I could find the reliable source of learning English grammar. which one should I trust!?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwGtNzdDmc
    "I saw Jim riding bike". riding is gerund and serves as the object (Jim) complement.
    And in the following link:
    http://www.eslcafe.com/grammar/gerun...and_use01.html
    3. Gerunds may also be used (though this not common)
    as
    object complements:
    Ms. Jones considers tardiness being more than
    five minutes late for class.

    How can you call this nonsense writing creatively?
    And, http://grammartips.homestead.com/pos...ithgerund.html
    Here is a simple example to help you see the difference between apresent participle, which may be preceded by the objective case of a pronoun or by the plain form of a noun, and a gerund, which needs the possessive form to modify it:

    ~I saw Jim swimming.
    ("Swimming" is a participle describing Jim.)

    ~I admired Jim's swimming.
    ("Swimming" is a gerund, acting as the direct object of the verb admired: What did I admire? I admired his swimming.)
    Last edited by nininaz; 19-Feb-2015 at 12:40.

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    #2

    Re: I saw Jim swimming


    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    1. "We saw them eating peanuts."

    a. "eating" is a participle.
    b. "Eating peanuts" is an objective complement.

    Source: House and Harman, Descriptive English Grammar (1950).


    2. "We found him strumming a guitar"

    a, "Strumming" is a participle.
    b. "Strumming a guitar" is an objective complement.

    Source: Pence and Emery, A Grammar of Present-Day English (1963).

    3. "We heard the man coming"

    a. "A participle (present or past) may be used as an objective complement."

    Source: Walter Kay Smart, English Review Grammar (1940).
    Last edited by emsr2d2; 19-Feb-2015 at 23:36. Reason: Removed extra line breaks

  2. nininaz's Avatar
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    #3

    Re: I saw Jim swimming

    Thanks for your helpful reply. I wish I could access to those valuable books. :(
    So, the following is considered to be incorrect as they are not Gerund they are participles.

    Gerunds may also be used (though this not common)
    as
    object complements:
    Ms. Jones considers tardiness being more than
    five minutes late for class.

    How can you call this nonsense writing creatively?
    Last edited by Rover_KE; 19-Feb-2015 at 19:32. Reason: Deleting unnecessary quote.

  3. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #4

    Re: I saw Jim swimming

    This is a very confusing area of English grammar. In your first two sentences about Jim, most people would consider the -ing words as participles, describing Jim. A gerund is a noun and there is no place for a noun there. In your last sentence about Jim, "I admired Jim's swimming", "swimming is a gerund noun modified by a possessive adjective.

    In your last two sentences I would say the -ing words are gerunds. The verbs in those two sentences, "considers" and "call", rename the direct objects as something else. I consider the something else a noun.

  4. nininaz's Avatar
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    #5

    Re: I saw Jim swimming

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    This is a very confusing area of English grammar. In your first two sentences about Jim, most people would consider the -ing words as participles, describing Jim. A gerund is a noun and there is no place for a noun there. In your last sentence about Jim, "I admired Jim's swimming", "swimming is a gerund noun modified by a possessive adjective.

    In your last two sentences I would say the -ing words are gerunds. The verbs in those two sentences, "considers" and "call", rename the direct objects as something else. I consider the something else a noun.
    Really thanks. So, If the verb + ing rename direct object it is considered as Gerund. and when verb+ing describe the direct object it is participle.

  5. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #6

    Re: I saw Jim swimming

    Quote Originally Posted by nininaz View Post
    Really thanks. So, if the verb + ing renames the direct object, it is considered a gerund. And when verb + ing describes the direct object, it is a participle.
    Yes. Well done!

  6. Matthew Wai's Avatar
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    #7

    Re: I saw Jim swimming

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    most people would consider the -ing words as participles, describing Jim.
    In the YouTube video provided by the OP, the teacher says '... the gerund is giving more information about the object...' Is such an opinion in the minority?

    Not a teacher.

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    #8

    Re: I saw Jim swimming

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    Hello, Nininaz:

    First, thanks for your thread. You and MikeNewYork have taught me so much.

    Second, I found these comments in my notebook:

    "Object complements with gerunds are possible with only a few verbs such as call and consider."

    I found three other examples:

    1. "Do you consider the memorization of vocabulary learning?"
    2. "I call it purring, not growling."
    3. "I call that taking candy from babies."

    a. Number 3 is from House and Harman's book. They say something very helpful:

    "If the finite verb is put in the passive voice[,] the objective complement becomes the predicate nominative; as, 'That is called taking candy from babies.' " (My note: As you can see, "taking" is definitely a gerund.)

    b. Let's try this with one of your sentences.

    i. "How can you call this nonsense writing creatively?"

    (a) Maybe it can be changed to: How can this nonsense be called writing creatively?


    James

  7. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #9

    Re: I saw Jim swimming

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Wai View Post
    In the YouTube video provided by the OP, the teacher says '... the gerund is giving more information about the object...' Is such an opinion in the minority?

    Not a teacher.
    If you are referring to the sentences I commented on, calling it a gerund is not only a minority opinion, it is incorrect.

  8. Matthew Wai's Avatar
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    #10

    Re: I saw Jim swimming

    I have just posted a message there, telling the teacher that his opinion is incorrect. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwGtNzdDmc
    Not a teacher.

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