[Grammar] I saw Jim swimming

[nininaz]

Hello Dear Teachers,
"I saw Jim swimming".
Is "swimming" participle ?! Do we have the adjective reduction in this sentence, which is " I saw Jim who was swimming", and reduced to "I saw Jim swimming".

If it serves as participle why in the link inserted it was considered as Gerund that has the role of the object complement?!
In the link mentioned : "I saw Jim riding bike". riding is gerund and serves as the object (Jim) complement.
Oh, I am getting exhausted about lost of controversy in different sources. I wish I could find the reliable source of learning English grammar. which one should I trust!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwGtNzdDmc
"I saw Jim riding bike". riding is gerund and serves as the object (Jim) complement.
And in the following link:
http://www.eslcafe.com/grammar/gerunds_form_and_use01.html

3.

Gerunds may also be used (though this not common) as object complements: Ms. Jones considers tardiness being more than five minutes late for class. How can you call this nonsense writing creatively?

And, http://grammartips.homestead.com/possessivewithgerund.html

Here is a simple example to help you see the difference between apresent participle, which may be preceded by the objective case of a pronoun or by the plain form of a noun, and a gerund, which needs the possessive form to modify it:
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~I saw Jim swimming.
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("Swimming" is a participle describing Jim.)
​

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~I admired Jim's swimming.
​

("Swimming" is a gerund, acting as the direct object of the verb admired: What did I admire? I admired his swimming.)​

 

[TheParser]

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

​

1. "We saw them eating peanuts."

a. "eating" is a participle.
b. "Eating peanuts" is an objective complement.

Source: House and Harman, Descriptive English Grammar (1950).


2. "We found him strumming a guitar"

a, "Strumming" is a participle.
b. "Strumming a guitar" is an objective complement.

Source: Pence and Emery, A Grammar of Present-Day English (1963).

3. "We heard the man coming"

a. "A participle (present or past) may be used as an objective complement."

Source: Walter Kay Smart, English Review Grammar (1940).

 

[nininaz]

Thanks for your helpful reply. I wish I could access to those valuable books.
So, the following is considered to be incorrect as they are not Gerund they are participles.

Gerunds may also be used (though this not common)
as object complements:
Ms. Jones considers tardiness being more than
five minutes late for class.
How can you call this nonsense writing creatively?

 

[MikeNewYork]

This is a very confusing area of English grammar. In your first two sentences about Jim, most people would consider the -ing words as participles, describing Jim. A gerund is a noun and there is no place for a noun there. In your last sentence about Jim, "I admired Jim's swimming", "swimming is a gerund noun modified by a possessive adjective.

In your last two sentences I would say the -ing words are gerunds. The verbs in those two sentences, "considers" and "call", rename the direct objects as something else. I consider the something else a noun.

 

[nininaz]

This is a very confusing area of English grammar. In your first two sentences about Jim, most people would consider the -ing words as participles, describing Jim. A gerund is a noun and there is no place for a noun there. In your last sentence about Jim, "I admired Jim's swimming", "swimming is a gerund noun modified by a possessive adjective.

In your last two sentences I would say the -ing words are gerunds. The verbs in those two sentences, "considers" and "call", rename the direct objects as something else. I consider the something else a noun.

Really thanks. So, If the verb + ing rename direct object it is considered as Gerund. and when verb+ing describe the direct object it is participle.

 

[MikeNewYork]

Really thanks. So, if the verb + ing renames the direct object, it is considered a gerund. And when verb + ing describes the direct object, it is a participle.

Yes. Well done!

 

[Matthew Wai]

most people would consider the -ing words as participles, describing Jim.

In the YouTube video provided by the OP, the teacher says '... the gerund is giving more information about the object...' Is such an opinion in the minority?

Not a teacher.

 

[TheParser]

***** NOT A TEACHER *****


Hello, Nininaz:

First, thanks for your thread. You and MikeNewYork have taught me so much.

Second, I found these comments in my notebook:

"Object complements with gerunds are possible with only a few verbs such as call and consider."

I found three other examples:

1. "Do you consider the memorization of vocabulary learning?"
2. "I call it purring, not growling."
3. "I call that taking candy from babies."

a. Number 3 is from House and Harman's book. They say something very helpful:

"If the finite verb is put in the passive voice[,] the objective complement becomes the predicate nominative; as, 'That is called taking candy from babies.' " (My note: As you can see, "taking" is definitely a gerund.)

b. Let's try this with one of your sentences.

i. "How can you call this nonsense writing creatively?"

(a) Maybe it can be changed to: How can this nonsense be called writing creatively?


James

 

[MikeNewYork]

In the YouTube video provided by the OP, the teacher says '... the gerund is giving more information about the object...' Is such an opinion in the minority?

Not a teacher.

If you are referring to the sentences I commented on, calling it a gerund is not only a minority opinion, it is incorrect.

 

[Matthew Wai]

I have just posted a message there, telling the teacher that his opinion is incorrect. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwGtNzdDmc
Not a teacher.

 

[Polyester]

MikeNewYork, I saw Matthew Wai have been studying English very hard-working.
Does it make sense or not?

Not a teacher.

 

[MikeNewYork]

Does what make sense: your sentence or Matthew's hard work?

 

[Polyester]

I mean my sentence exactly,but not person.

 

[MikeNewYork]

I would have written: I have noticed that Matthew Wai has been working hard to learn English. (And he has!)

 

[Matthew Wai]

I would simply say '... has been learning English hard'.

Not a teacher.

 

[TheParser]

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

I promise, Nininaz: I will NOT post any more comments in this thread.

But I found some information that knocked my socks off ( = the information made a big impression on me)! So I wanted to share it with you.

"We can also use gerunds after the object of some verbs, e.g., consider, call, declare, have, take, and spend."

The authors then give this example: "My sister spends hours chatting with friends on her mobile."


James

Source: Mark Lloyd and Jeremy Day, Active Grammar Level 3 (2011). I accessed it in the "books" section of Google.

 

[Roman55]

I would simply say '... has been learning English hard'.

I am not a teacher.

I wouldn't.

I can't think of any situation where I would use, 'learning something hard'.

 

[MikeNewYork]

James, there is some room for disagreement in this area. With "considers", "calls", "declares", we can see the -ing phrase as renaming the object. In that case, the word "gerund" applies. In this new example, that analysis doesn't work. In this case, I would call "chatting with friends..." a participial adjectival phrase modifying "hours". It answers the question "what kind of hours".

 

[Matthew Wai]

JIn this case, I would call "chatting with friends..." a participial adjectival phrase modifying "hours".

What would you call it in 'My father has forbidden her chatting with friends on her mobile'?

I can't think of any situation where I would use, 'learning something hard'.

'10. Our teacher encouraged us to learn English hard.'── quoted from an English learning site set up by Chinese people.
Is it only used by us Chinese people but not native speakers?

Not a teacher.

 

[MikeNewYork]

In your "chatting" sentence, "chatting" is a gerund.