[General] What does this double negative sentence mean?

[ohmyrichard]

Dear teachers,

The day before, I read a three-paragraph post on Reddit, which goes as follows:


(In order to let you better understand how my question arose, I got the whole post typed below and have the sentence of "double negative" underlined, which is what my question is about.)

Regarding their rebel flag on the Mississippi flag...I just learned they added it in the 50s to send the specific message they are a segregated state (the sentence of "I just learned they ...are a segregated state" was marked as something crossed out in the original post)It was flown in pro-segregation rallies along with the "rebel flag". So shameless how racist people were back then. It blows my mind how many people don't believe these types of actions by the government couldn't have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America.

Half of Americans until the late 80s didn't believe in interracial dating, you're telling me this didn't affect job, education, and legal system treatment of blacks?

It's almost sickening how little we do to identify and fix these problems.



My question is, what does the underlined sentence actually mean? Is it that here in this sentence the second negative acts only as an intensifier to the first negative and they do not resolve to a positive?(I am borrowing the way of explaining the issue from wikipedia) I mean the underlined sentence means "I am surprised that many people don't believe these types of actions by the government could have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America" or "I am surprised that many people believe these types of actions by the government couldn't have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America", does it?

Looking forward to your replies. Thanks.

Richard

 

[teechar]

It is badly written, and certainly that double negative is confusing.
It should have said:

"It blows my mind how many people don't believe these types of actions by the government could have resulted in ... etc."

 

[ohmyrichard]

It is badly written, and certainly that double negative is confusing.
It should have said:

"It blows my mind how many people don't believe these types of actions by the government could have resulted in ... etc."

Thanks, teechar.

As this is a post in a thread on Reddit over the Confederate flag controversy in South Carolina, the post is certainly written in colloquial English, which is usually nonstandard. I think this poster is an African American guy. To my knowledge, American blacks use "double negative" only to intensify a negative very often.


Here is a follow-up question for you, teechar. If I want to make the sentence a bit formal, may I say "It surprises me that many people don't believe these types of actions by the government couldn't have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America" instead? Please note that I have omitted "how" before "many" . Please give me a further reply. Thanks for your time and help.

 

[teechar]

I think this poster is an African American guy.

I have no idea, and I think that's irrelevant to be honest.

To my knowledge, American blacks use "double negative" only to intensify a negative very often.

I'm not sure what you mean by "American blacks", but if it's a reference to African Americans, then do you have the evidence for your claim?

If I want to make the sentence a bit formal, may I say "It surprises me that many people don't believe these types of actions by the government couldn't have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America" instead?

That's just as erroneous as it also uses a double negative!

I have omitted "how" before "many."

That doesn't make much difference.

 

[ohmyrichard]

I have no idea, and I think that's irrelevant to be honest.


I'm not sure what you mean by "American blacks", but if it's a reference to African Americans, then do you have the evidence for your claim?


That's just as erroneous as it also uses a double negative!


That doesn't make much difference.

Thanks, teechar.

I have googled "American blacks" and "Black Americans" respectively and have found that the latter is more often used to refer to African Americans. However, I am still not sure whether "American blacks" is something incorrect.

I am very sorry to have forgotten to drop the former of the two negatives in my revised sentence.

As to whether African Americans more often use the double negative, please take a look at post # 7, paragraph 2 on the webpage of http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/dont-hurt-no-one.874061/. Having said that, wikipedia tells us that much earlier in the history of the English language, the use of the double negative was standard English and prevalent. For example, there is a lot of use of it in Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales.

 

[MikeNewYork]

Your link to the Word Reference Forum is to the opinion of one person.

 

[ohmyrichard]

Your link to the Word Reference Forum is to the opinion of one person.

OK. Then let's forget about African Americans, please focus on my follow-up question in post #3:If I want to make the sentence a bit formal, may I say "It surprises me that many people believe these types of actions by the government couldn't have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America" instead?

Could it be that the Reddit poster said "how many" but actually meant "many"? I feel that this happens very often in colloquial English by native speakers. Am I right on this? And how about my revision in the previous paragraph of this post if we want to make the original sentence a little bit formal so that it can be used in a, say, student writing situation?

 

[Tdol]

For me:

It surprises me how many (I am surprised by the number)
It surprises me that many (I am surprised that the number is large)

 

[ohmyrichard]

For me:

It surprises me how many (I am surprised by the number)
It surprises me that many (I am surprised that the number is large)

Thanks for replying to my post, Tdol.

Let me make clear that I intended "that" in "It surprises me that many ..." to lead a that-clause rather than intensify "many".

I have been thinking about the subtle difference between the colloquial version and the written version of the same sentence. How shall we put in formal writing situations "It blows my mind how many people don't believe these types of actions by the government couldn't have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America" ? Can we keep it wholly intact in formal writing situations or do we have to change it to something like "It surprises me many people believe these types of actions by the government couldn't have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America"?

 

[Matthew Wai]

I think 'how' should not be omitted or the original meaning will be changed, but I am not a teacher.

 

[ohmyrichard]

I think 'how' should not be omitted or the original meaning will be changed, but I am not a teacher.

Can you figure out what difference from the original sentence the omission of "how" could cause?

 

[Tdol]

I have been thinking about the subtle difference between the colloquial version and the written version of the same sentence. How shall we put in formal writing situations "It blows my mind how many people don't believe these types of actions by the government couldn't have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America" ? Can we keep it wholly intact in formal writing situations

I don't see why you couldn't use how many in a formal context, but blows my mind wouldn't work.

 

[ohmyrichard]

I don't see why you couldn't use how many in a formal context, but blows my mind wouldn't work.

Thanks for replying to my post.

Honestly, I thought this "how many" may be a coloqial expression in this particular situation which equates with "many" in meaning but I might be wrong in this judgement. And I thought along this line of reasoning (it might be wrong) that if so, why bother to use one extra word and why not use only "many", especially when we are in a writing situation? This is why in my last post I asked about whether there would be a difference arising if "how" is omitted.

To put it simply, is "how many" in this situation used as a colloquial expression which simply means "many"? If the answer is positive, wouldn't it be better to use "many" instead of "how many" in a writing situation?

I hope I have explained my questions clearly. By the way, I, as a nonnative speaker of English, am not making assertions, I am seeking help from you. And due to my low level English proficiency, I often have to make a great effort to understand some of your sentences, which may be quite plain to you native speakers but may be quite difficult to nonnatives. Certainly, I can overlook many of these sentences and still will never fail to get a general idea of any stuff I read, but as I always want to gain a better understanding of the English language, I guess I cannot afford to do that.

Therefore, if you like, please stretch out your helping hand and explain your understanding of this issue. Thanks a lot!

 

[Matthew Wai]

Can you figure out what difference from the original sentence the omission of "how" could cause?

I think the difference was already explained in Tdol's post#8, but I am not a teacher.

my low level English proficiency

Mine is even lower than yours.

 

[ohmyrichard]

I think the difference was already explained in Tdol's post#8, but I am not a teacher.


Mine is even lower than yours.

I read post #8 again just now. Maybe you are right. But I have no idea whether Tdol considers "that" in his second sentence as a conjunction leading a that-clause or an intensifier of "many". I intended it to be a conjunction leading a clause rather than an intensifier of "many" when I was interpreting the underlined sentence in my original post.

 

[Matthew Wai]

But I have no idea whether Tdol considers "that" in his second sentence as a conjunction leading a that-clause or an intensifier of "many".

I would add 'so' after 'that' if I want to emphasize 'many', but I am not a teacher.

how many people don't believe these types of actions by the government couldn't have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America

I think the above sentence suggests that those people still don't believe it although they have been told about it, but the following one does not carry this suggestion.

many people believe these types of actions by the government couldn't have resulted in the wealth disparity we see between blacks and whites in America

 

[ohmyrichard]

I would add 'so' after 'that' if I want to emphasize 'many', but I am not a teacher.


I think the above sentence suggests that those people still don't believe it although they have been told about it, but the following one does not carry this suggestion.

Thanks for your further explanation.

By the way, why do the thank and like buttons not work? Something wrong with my computer or this forum?

 

[MikeNewYork]

Are you you using a phone to access the forum? Others have said that those buttons do not work on their phones.

 

[ohmyrichard]

Are you you using a phone to access the forum? Others have said that those buttons do not work on their phones.

When I first started this thead and discussed with the earlier answerers, the two buttons worked on my Samsung phone and my laptop. Now they do not respond to my clicks any more whether I am working on my cell phone or on my laptop.

 

[MikeNewYork]

Then you are above my pay grade. You should post a question in the support forum.