How to say eighth, seventh, and month?

[kewkiez11219]

How do you transition from the t and n position to the th sound? According to the dictionary, eight is pronounced as /eɪtθ/, but it's hard to transition from the t to the th. Same for seventh and month; how does one transition from the n to the th?

 

[kewkiez11219]

So, I gently put my tongue tip on my t/n position, then I slowly and gently lift it off the ridge so that there is space between the tongue and the ridge and there is space between the back teeth and the tongue tip. Once I created those space, I could then create the air in the th sound. Is this about right?

 

[kewkiez11219]

Thanks so much. This makes a lot more sense. But this apply to the dental position of the th rather than the interdental position? Dental meaning the tongue tip is placed behind the upper teeth rather than between.

 

[kewkiez11219]

In the cases of seventh and month, is the n on the alveolar position or the dental position?

 

[Skrej]

You might check out this site, it has some animations showing cutaway views of points of articulation, as well as some video clips showing the front of the mouth during sound production.

You'll find the 'th' sounds (note that English has two different 'th' sounds, represented by /ð/ and /θ/on this page) under the 'Fricative' tab. /n/ will appear under the "Nasal" tab.

To answer your question from #7, the /n/ is alveolar. I think you may be confused about Piscean's comments regarding dental/alveolar which were in reference to the 'th' sound, not /n/. There isn't a dental /n/, or at least not in English. You can't nasalize a sound very well with your tongue clear up between your teeth.

 

[kewkiez11219]

Now that I think about it, I don't think 'dental" is a good choice of word. Sorry about that. :-( By "dental" n, I mean that the n is still alveolar but is closer to the teeth and touching more of it in the case of month and seventh. I would like to keep my th sound behind my teeth rather than between the teeth, because, logically speaking, doesn't that make the transition from the n to the th faster and more efficient considering the fact that the n position is behind the teeth as well.

 

[Skrej]

I think you may be over-thinking this a bit. As Piscean mentioned earlier, these aren't conscious decision we're making as we speak. Plus, different speakers, particularly those with different variants, or even regional variants, may articulate slightly differently.

For me, I pronounce the 'th' sound purely as dental - you can see my tongue stick out between my teeth. I don't know if you could even measure the fractional millisecond of time you might potentially save transitioning from alveolar /n/ to alveolar 'th' versus dental 'th'. I mean, you're talking maybe a millimeter or two difference between /n/ and 'th'. Alveolar isn't where the teeth enter the gum, alveolar is the ridge or bump made the roots of your teeth, where the gum rounds up into the top of the mouth (or palate). Take a look at this map - notice alveolar sounds are made around positions 4 and 5.

My /n/ is so far back on the alveolar ridge as to be almost palatial. Still, that jump from high alveolar to dental can't be measured or noticed, at least not with extensive sound analysis!

But still, I think it's quibbling to focus on these minutiae. Better to just practice the transition hundreds of times. Eventually it'll become so natural and fluid you won't be concentrating on where you tongue is.

Start slow, and make a distinct, separate /n/ sound. Then slowly make your 'th' sound. Slowly alternate between the two for a couple dozen times. Gradually start picking up speed as you alternate between them until you have a seamless transition. Then practice that blend a hundred times.

At that point, it'll be so automatic the two sounds will be almost one. While you're practicing, focus not on the tongue position or time, but just on the final sound.

 

[kewkiez11219]

That's some very good advice. But what I don't get is how do we do the th sound behind the upper teeth? I feel like I'm pressured to hit the teeth my my tongue tip and to put my tongue in a horizontal position, but I find it easier when the front part of my tongue curl up towards towards the back wall of the teeth, and the part of the tongue I feel like making the contact with the back walls of my teeth is the undersurface of my tongue tip. In the second and easier method, the tongue is not horizontal at all.

 

[Skrej]

Go ahead with whichever works best for you. It sounds like you're describing a slightly more alveolar 'th' sound, but as I said, there is room for differences. Piscean mentioned as much as well in his earlier post.

I just tried pronouncing the 'th' sound as closely as I could approximate from your descriptions, compared to my personal pronunciation, and I really can't hear any significant difference.

 

[kewkiez11219]

Would you mind describing me your method on how you make the th sound?

 

[Skrej]

Did you follow the link I offered in post #8? That site explains the dental 'th' sound better than I can in writing.

 

[Roman55]

Would you mind describing me your method on how you make the th sound?

I almost never, strictly speaking, place my tongue between the teeth, and certainly never have it protrude.

With your mouth open, try placing the tip of your tongue against your lower teeth. Push air over the tongue and close your mouth (keeping your lips parted) until your tongue touches your upper teeth. You will automatically produce the /θ/ sound. If you also use your vocal chords you will produce the /ð/.

 

[Eckaslike]

I totally agree with Roman55. I never stick my tongue between my teeth when making these "th" sounds. It may be that they tell learners to do it like that because it's easier for them to see and copy how the sounds are made.

That point aside, this video seems pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=23&v=dH6frSvVrEU

 

[kewkiez11219]

I don't want to get deep into the details, but I would like to know if the whole "height/width" of the the tongue is behind the upper incisors/teeth. I think I'm basically saying, does one's tongue tip hit the back walls of the upper incisor around the middle of the length of the upper teeth, or does the tip hit directly on the area behind the teeth right above the teeth's edge(basically the lower portion of the length of the upper teeth). In the second method, it's obvious that the whole tongue is not behind the teeth since it hitting so close to the teeth's edge. The reason why I'm asking such question is because both methods seem to produce the same sound , except the second method is harder to use in fast speech. If the second method is the correct way of doing it, then I guess I just need to practice more.

 

[Eckaslike]

From what you have written, it seems that you have found two ways of making the sounds for "th". I would choose whichever you find easiest, as long as you are sure that you are making the right sound. That's why we first language speakers can say difficult things rapidly.

e.g. "They threw three thick things."

You will find if you stick your tongue out each time it will slow you down a great deal. However, some people make it that way, others don't. It may be a regional difference. It may possibly be more common to slightly stick your tongue out in the American way of saying "th", but at the bottom of each YouTube video showing this there is usually a comment from a BrE speaker saying "we never stick our tongues out to make this sound". That is one of the wonders of English.

So as Skrej said, do what works for you. If you do it in one of the ways you mentioned, and you can still make the "th" sound then, to me, you are making it more how we would probably do it. You will then be able to say the tongue twister above much quicker, and still be understood.

If you practice some of these other tongue twisters, and then try to go faster and faster, over time, you will find the sound much easier to produce. That's how we all learnt to do it as children, and it works.

http://languageavenue.com/teaching-ideas/english-tongue-twisters/sound-th