[Grammar] Authority References: It's me or It's I ?

[bkpsusmitaa]

There is an endless battle going on between the two forms, and I observe several other instances. It doesn't matter whether I bypass these altogether. Fools carry on with the debate, and this might cost someone his job when he receives poor marks for these. The best would say that it would be the best if you don't take those exams that ask such silly questions. But still the battle rages on ...

• I am older than he is or him
• It's me or it's I
• It's them or it's they
• It is I who am here or It is me who is here

People who engage in these battles miss out on the real motive to learn a language. It's about communication. So long as English is easier than other languages without pitfalls people will learn English. That was why English became accepted in the first place, not German (which has more queer rules, like Hindi and Sanskrit).

People who engage in pointless pursuit do a great disservice to the language.

In India there is a Board called Karnataka Board that engages in such pointless pursuits.

People like these guys follow the faux rule that silence is approval. It's like, "God I want to kill him. Do you approve?" When met with silence goes ahead and kills.

I need an authoritative book which talks along these lines. I am really sick of this Karnataka Board that wishes to screw my daughter's head!

 

[Raymott]

"So long as English is easier than other languages without pitfalls people will learn English. That was why English became accepted in the first place, not German."

Surely you're not looking for a book that would make such ill-informed remarks, are you? In the case of India, English has become accepted partly because India was colonised by Britain, not Germany. Britain also had an empire, and left its language all over the world to develop into various varieties. Besides, German is not that much more difficult than English, if at all - though I take your point about Sanskrit.

 

[tedmc]

The reality is that rules about subjective and objective pronouns are simple enough but in practice, they are often not followed or taken seriously, even among natives.

 

[bkpsusmitaa]

Surely you're not looking for a book that would make such ill-informed remarks, are you?

No, I am looking for just the opposite, an authoritative book (or a list of books) that speaks against these, and in general, about the agreement (condord) of verbs with subjects.

Besides, German is not that much more difficult than English, if at all - though I take your point about Sanskrit.

Yes, it is! My daughter took German for two years, and she says that there are different rules for "ordinary you", "friendly you" and "respectable you" in addition to genders, just like it is for Sanskrit and Hindi. In the last two, you have different verb forms for genders, and complex rules for Agreements/Concords.

And regarding, "...and left it's language all over the world...", 'it's' will be 'its' . You may like to amend that. [no longer relevant, Raymott's post has been corrected since] I commit such mistakes every now and then, but when I go over my writings after some days the mistakes there keep barking until I correct them.

My mother tongue, Bangla, also has the three(3) different forms of You but it is totally free from the gender problems.

English is the best of all that I have surveyed, only that its phonetics is queer, the proverbial Go & Do, may have been introduced by the second standardisation of the language. Had English been vernacular, like Bangla, it would have been the World's best language.

English is my favourite, not because the British ruled over us and we have that colonial/slave mentality, but because it is very easy to speak (can be difficult to write, conflicts with phonetics).

 

[bkpsusmitaa]

The reality is that rules about subjective and objective pronouns are simple enough but in practice, they are often not followed or taken seriously, even among natives.

I honour your intent to discuss the issue at length, and will do so, as soon as I have found authoritative source(s) that discuss the subject and the issue in general at length. For the time being I would request members not to post anything that would divert addressing my request, other than with a list of authoritative books on the English Language that speaks on the issue.

I have one, A Comprehensive Grammar Of The English Language, edited by Randolph Quirk, Sidney Greenbaum, et al. It is there in article 10.44, Concord of Person.

I need some more. I need to screw the Karnataka Board back.

 

[tkacka15]

See Practical English Usage by Michael Swan, entry 135: case (I and me, who and whom, etc).

 

[bkpsusmitaa]

... Practical English Usage ... Michael Swan ...

Thank you!

 

[Tdol]

I am older than he is or him- I would say the jury is out on this, and there is also the possibility, though less common, of simply using he instead of he is. However, him is the most common.
It's me or it's I- In all honesty, I haven't heard anyone say It is I in decades. It sounds very ancient schoolmarm to me, and I am well into my middle age (British English speaker). With the contraction, it is moving into the territory of the weird.
It's them or it's they- Same as above
It is I who am here or It is me who is here- Optional, but I would say that I think the me form is winning, and I would guess overwhelmingly in BrE.

 

[bkpsusmitaa]

I am older than ... I would guess overwhelmingly in BrE.

My dear editor, I am sorry not to have explained myself better, but didn't want an opinion. I simply avoid those pitfalls My using English has everything to do with ease of use, very few rules, and I do avoid the usual pitfalls. Regarding writing a non-phonetic language I let my subconscious memory and online dictionary take care of the work.

Now, what I wanted was references, and still more references.

I know you are very busy, so I would like to reduce your responsibility towards me, a newbie, by asking you about references and more references.

And assuming you are eager to have a heart-warming conversation, why don't we do it by Personal Messaging?

Please do send me a PM and we could chat.

And please don't forget to send me references and more references - Article/item no. and all, like tkacka15, who informed me about Practical English Usage, by Michael Swan, entry 135: case (I and me, who and whom, etc).

It was so nice of you to try and help. I respect your intent.

Regards

 

[Tdol]

Why don't you look for international grammar books covering the English language worldwide that back the claim that It is I is somehow superior to It is me? You really will struggle to find anything in the last few decades that maintains that the latter is wrong. You can try things like Quirk, Leech and Svartnik, Michael Swan, etc, etc, and you will really struggle to find mainstream grammars still arguing about whether It is me is utterly wrong. There simply is no case to be made for the other side, and there hasn't been for a very long time.

 

[bkpsusmitaa]

Why don't you look ... and there hasn't been for a
very long time.

Dear Editor,

You must have been overburdened with work for a long time.

Please peruse my first post and the subsequent ones:

There is an endless battle going on between the two
forms, and I observe several other instances. It doesn't matter
whether I bypass these altogether. Fools carry on with the debate, and
this might cost someone his job when he receives poor marks for these

...

people who engage in these battles miss out on the
real motive to learn a language. It's about communication. ...

...

People who engage in pointless pursuit do a great
disservice to the language.

...

In India there is a Board called Karnataka Board
that engages in such pointless pursuits.

And I said I needed exactly:

I need an
authoritative book which talks along these lines [that these battles
are pointless]. I am really sick of this Karnataka Board that wishes
to screw my daughter's head! ... I need some more. I need to screw the
Karnataka Board back.

I am looking for just the opposite, an
authoritative book (or a list of books) that speaks against these
[engaging on pointless battles], and in general, about the agreement
(condord) of verbs with subjects.

I hope I have been able to convey that I don't want opinions. I need
comments in authoritative books that such battles over trivial issues
are pointless.

My thanking the the poster tkacka15 was satirical. The poster did not
have the intent of knowing what I needed. He assumed what I needed and
imposed his decision upon me.

You could provide me with just the right reference - i.e., such issues
are pointless.

Aided with this information I am going to screw the Karnataka Board,
which pursues such pointless issues.

 

[Tdol]

Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/Woe-Grammarphobes-Better-English-Edition/dp/157322331X
http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2006/11/woe-is-i-vs-woe-is-me.html

If you want an in-depth discussion, try this:
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxitsmev.html

Or this:
http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/austheir.html

Or this:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/it-is-i-versus-it-is-me

Etc, etc.

Now name any serious grammarian of the last few decades who has supported the idea that only It is I is correct- there aren't any. It's an argument that was sorted out decades ago. People can quote Fowler but that just illustrates the point. Linguists haven't thought like this for ages.

There isn't much discussion in British law books about capital punishment because that argument is so old. Likewise, people aren't fighting about this issue nowadays because virtually no one is making the case for It is I. I can't link to things like A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (Quirk, Greenbaum, Leech and Svartvik) because of copyright, but search for that and check there- it's a standard authority, and they reflect modern usage. And anyone who says they're a greater authority than them is probably wrong. Have a look in the section on pronouns. It's section 6.4 in my version. They talk of formal and informal usage, but do not say that what they call the informal use of object pronouns is wrong. And this is not a new book- decades ago, they accepted it as informal.

 

[bkpsusmitaa]

Now name any serious grammarian of the last few decades who has supported the idea that only It is I is correct- there aren't any. It's an argument that was sorted out decades ago. People can quote Fowler but that just illustrates the point. Linguists haven't thought like this for ages ...
...
They talk of formal and informal usage, but do not say that what they call the informal use of object pronouns is wrong. And this is not a new book- decades ago, they accepted it as informal.

My dear editor, so you can possibly understand that the Karnataka board is plain wrong to set such ambiguous questions in the first place. It is the Karnataka Board which is at fault. The people there are trying to screw my daughter's head, and I am determined to screw them back real hard.

As I have said earlier, I already have that book. In order to hit the Karnataka guys real hard I wanted to quote a few more. As they say in "Law: practice and procedure", the more, the better.

Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/Woe-Grammarphobes-Better-English-Edition/dp/157322331X

My dear editor, I need books, authoritative books. The Amazon link to Woe is I: The Grammarphobe's Guide to Better English in Plain English, 3rd Edition will do nicely.

http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2006/11/woe-is-i-vs-woe-is-me.html

Origins of the Specious
Myths and Misconceptions of the English Language.
This book has caught my attention. I will try to procure it.

If you want an in-depth discussion, try this:
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxitsmev.html

Yes, Fowler will be nice. I have that book. The Quote and the bygone era shall surely help me regarding modern usage.

Or this:
http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/austheir.html

This apparently isn't going to help me immediately. But it will definitely in future.

Or this:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/it-is-i-versus-it-is-me

This one is short and nice.

The idiots I am talking about do not understand about the veracity of online sources. They live in the stone age. These guys still believe that Vedas were uttered by Lord Brahmaa at once. Just like the ... and the ... literally believe in their Bibles. You can't argue with twisted minds. You just show them hard evidences (to them, it is printed Books) and run off as quickly as you can.

 

[Tdol]

Well go for the Comprehensive Grammar- it's huge, printed and authoritative.

 

[bkpsusmitaa]

Yes, I also have the names of a couple of books, which I would use as support material. The unfortunate part about Fowler is that perhaps the link you have given has the quote from the first edition of Fowler. I have the year 2002 edition. My edition doesn't contain the passage mentioned there:
"me is technically wrong in It wasn't me etc.;
but the phrase being of its very nature colloquial, such a lapse is
of no importance".

Since the first edition and mine much has changed.

Thank you for all the points you have raised and guided me. Let's see if I could effect some change in the Board's mindset. My good wishes!

 

[tkacka15]

Whatever, the battle between the prescriptive grammarians and descriptive ones never ends. If you ignore syntax, you can replace the complement "I" with the objective "me" in "It is I". In my opinion, it's a hairsplitting about unimportartant differences together with that pursuit for the definitive authority to decide which pronoun should be used after the copula.

 

[bkpsusmitaa]

... never ends. If you ignore syntax, you can replace the complement "I" with the objective "me" in "It is I". In my opinion, it's a hairsplitting about unimportartant differences...

I believe you wish to say a lot and not listen. Perhaps you are very young and testing the waters. Why don't you begin your own thread and discuss to your heart's content?

You don't have even the patience to read what the O.P. wanted, you just want to express yourself ...

 

[Tdol]

I believe you wish to say a lot and not listen. Perhaps you are very young and testing the waters. Why don't you begin your own thread and discuss to your heart's content?

You don't have even the patience to read what the O.P. wanted, you just want to express yourself ...

It's a public forum and people will express themselves, so do make allowances for other people's views coming in.