Results 1 to 10 of 10
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Tamil
      • Home Country:
      • India
      • Current Location:
      • India

    • Join Date: Jun 2012
    • Posts: 100
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #1

    nonrestrictive or restrictive (which or that)

    Hello everyone,

    In the following sentence, isn't the clause introduced by the relative pronoun which a nonrestrictive one, and hence a comma should precede the the word which?

    Could the clause be restrictive (I doubt)? Sometimes, this distinction is so confusing!


    Suffice it to say that European influence, regardless of whether coming directly with European settlers or passing through America before affecting the practice of philanthropy in Australia and New Zealand, established the philanthropic tradition which has subsequently been shaped by new migrations, primarily from Asia but also from other parts of the world.

    Thank you!

  1. Piscean's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • Czech Republic
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Jul 2015
    • Posts: 6,585
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #2

    Re: nonrestrictive or restrictive (which or that)

    I think it is more likely to be restrictive/defining, particularly with the definite article before 'philanthropic tradition'.

    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Tamil
      • Home Country:
      • India
      • Current Location:
      • India

    • Join Date: Jun 2012
    • Posts: 100
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #3

    Re: nonrestrictive or restrictive (which or that)

    Hello "Piscean",

    First of all, thank you for your reply. But I am still confused!

    Without the intervening clutter, this is the sentence: European influence established the philanthropic tradition that has subsequently been shaped by new migrations, primarily from Asia but also from other parts of the world.

    Is it still OK?

  2. Piscean's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • Czech Republic
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Jul 2015
    • Posts: 6,585
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #4

    Re: nonrestrictive or restrictive (which or that)

    Yes.

    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States

    • Join Date: Dec 2009
    • Posts: 6,267
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #5

    Re: nonrestrictive or restrictive (which or that)

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMelange View Post
    Sometimes, this distinction is so confusing!


    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****


    Most Amercan teachers recommend that their students use "that" for defining clauses and "which" only for non-defining clauses. Thus, American writers would require a comma in front of "which."

    I have made up these sentences:

    1. The world [i.e., society] that I knew as a child no longer exists. (It would wrong to say "The world no longer exists.")

    2. The United States, which lies between two big oceans, is no longer isolated from the rest of the world. (It would be accurate to say "The United States is no longer isolated from the rest of the world.")


    *****

    In some varieties of English, either relative pronoun would be correct: "The world that/which I knew as a child no longer exists."

  3. MikeNewYork's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • American English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States

    • Join Date: Nov 2002
    • Posts: 24,983
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #6

    Re: nonrestrictive or restrictive (which or that)

    The insistence on using "that" (not which) for defining clauses was in vogue for many years, but it is waning.

    See the usage note here: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/that

    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Tamil
      • Home Country:
      • India
      • Current Location:
      • India

    • Join Date: Jun 2012
    • Posts: 100
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #7

    Re: nonrestrictive or restrictive (which or that)

    Hello Parser,

    Yes, I am aware of this preference, and thank you for your example sentences. No matter how clear one is regarding the usage of that and which (defining and parenthetical), such sentences always reinforce one's existing knowledge on the subject.
    But my problem (or confusion!) is with the occasional sentences embedded in larger passages, say, for example, the sentence we have seen in this thread:

    European influence, regardless of whether coming directly with European settlers or passing through America before affecting the practice of philanthropy in Australia and New Zealand, established the philanthropic tradition which has subsequently been shaped by new migrations, primarily from Asia but also from other parts of the world.

    In this sentence, I still feel the relative clause introduced by the word which is a parenthetical one and hence needs a comma before the word, not the word that (making it defining).

    I am unable to shake off the feeling that the above sentence actually means thus:

    European influence, regardless of whether coming directly with European settlers or passing through America before affecting the practice of philanthropy in Australia and New Zealand, established the philanthropic tradition
    , and this tradition has subsequently been shaped by new migrations, primarily from Asia but also from other parts of the world.
    [hence a comma followed by which]

    My confusion with the distinction between restrictive/defining and nonrestrictive/parenthetical is with respect to this particular sentence right now (of course, there are always quite a few such sentences that trouble me when I am working!).

    I would appreciate any explanation regarding this sentence. Thank you for your patience!
    Last edited by LaMelange; 12-Nov-2015 at 18:20. Reason: line spacing

  4. Raymott's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Australia
      • Current Location:
      • Australia

    • Join Date: Jun 2008
    • Posts: 23,270
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #8

    Re: nonrestrictive or restrictive (which or that)

    I don't think it matters in this case. It apparently refers to some philanthropic tradition in Australia and NZ. The surrounding context should tell.
    I didn't know we had a philanthropic tradition. But if we do, I'm pretty sure we don't have one that has been subsequently shaped ..., and one that hasn't.

    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Tamil
      • Home Country:
      • India
      • Current Location:
      • India

    • Join Date: Jun 2012
    • Posts: 100
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #9

    Re: nonrestrictive or restrictive (which or that)

    Hello Mike,

    Thank you very much for sharing the link. Detailed explanation with good examples...

    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Tamil
      • Home Country:
      • India
      • Current Location:
      • India

    • Join Date: Jun 2012
    • Posts: 100
    • Post Thanks / Like
    #10

    Re: nonrestrictive or restrictive (which or that)

    Hello Raymott,

    Yes, the chapter talks about the philanthropic tradition in Oceania.

    Your last sentence...that is exactly how I feel.

    Thank you so much for your response.

Similar Threads

  1. [Grammar] Restrictive clause vs non restrictive, definite articles
    By Jerzy_S in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-Oct-2014, 22:54
  2. [General] Clause - Restrictive or Nonrestrictive?
    By LiuJing in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 29-Jun-2010, 04:14
  3. Restrictive or nonrestrictive
    By Allen165 in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 02-Jun-2010, 11:10
  4. Restrictive or non-restrictive clause
    By Deepurple in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 30-Oct-2008, 05:20
  5. what is the restrictive and non-restrictive clauses?
    By Unregistered in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 28-Nov-2007, 11:09

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •