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  1. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #1

    Verb or verbal?

    I think calling the infinitive a verb is confusing. That is why the term "verbal" was invented. We say that a complete sentence requires a subject and a verb, not a subject and an infinitive or a gerund.
    Last edited by bhaisahab; 07-Dec-2015 at 11:01.

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    #2

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    I have moved this post here to a new thread to avoid completely hijacking the OP's post. I have also edited it to make it clear what it is about.
    “Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”

    — Arthur Schopenhauer

  3. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #3

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    Good idea.

  4. Piscean's Avatar
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    #4

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    I think calling the infinitive a verb is confusing. That is why the term "verbal" was invented.
    The word verbal (noun) does not appear in

    The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (2002)
    A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (1985)
    The English Verb (1974)
    The Oxford Companion to the English Language (1992)
    Oxford Modern English Grammar (2011)

    As these , particularly the Quirk and H& P are respected and considered authoritative throughout the English-speaking world, I think we can assume that the idea of 'verbals' is not considered all that useful.

    It also does not appear in any of the coursebooks or student grammars I have used in my long TEFL career


    We say that a complete sentence requires a subject and a verb, not a subject and an infinitive or a gerund.
    NO. we say that a complete sentence requires a finite verb and a subject (or at least an implied subject).

    To claim that a form that can show tense and aspect [(to) read, (to) have read, (to) be reading, (to) have been reading)], take a direct object [I want to read that book], and have an implied subject [I want him to read that book] is not some form of verb seems a little perverse to me. I have on my bookshelf nearly every grammar of English published since 1586, and many books on the English verb. All of them examine infinitives in the chapter(s) on the verb.

  5. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #5

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    The word verbal (noun) does not appear in

    The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (2002)
    A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (1985)
    The English Verb (1974)
    The Oxford Companion to the English Language (1992)
    Oxford Modern English Grammar (2011)

    As these , particularly the Quirk and H& P are respected and considered authoritative throughout the English-speaking world, I think we can assume that the idea of 'verbals' is not considered all that useful.


    It also does not appear in any of the coursebooks or student grammars I have used in my long TEFL career

    142 million Google pages disagree. I will go with them over Quirk -- one guy with an opinion.

    NO. we say that a complete sentence requires a finite verb and a subject (or at least an implied subject).

    To claim that a form that can show tense and aspect [
    (to) read, (to) have read, (to) be reading, (to) have been reading)], take a direct object [I want to read that book], and have an implied subject [I want him to read that book] is not some form of verb seems a little perverse to me. I have on my bookshelf nearly every grammar of English published since 1586, and many books on the English verb. All of them examine infinitives in the chapter(s) on the verb.

    "We" do not say that. You say that.

  6. Piscean's Avatar
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    #6

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    "We" do not say that. You say that.
    I am far from alone. Let's take a book published in 1954,before the days of the modern grammarians for whom you seem to have little time. Frederick T Wood's The Groundwork of English Grammar was a book which was used in countless grammar schools across England and Wales. On page 18, Wood writes:

    Every sentence must contain a verb, either actually expressed or implied. (More strictly, we should say a finite verb, but as we have not been introduced to to this term we will content ourselves with speaking merely of "a verb".)

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    #7

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    That's 147,999,999 to go. You can see the problem with your quoted text. If one is not clear about one's terminology, there will always be confusion.

  8. Piscean's Avatar
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    #8

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    What you seem reluctant to accept is that, for most people I have come across in my learning and teaching career, the word 'verb' covers all forms of that class of words that indicates events, processes states and conditions. When necessary we subdivide verbs themselves into, for example, lexical, primary auxiliary and modal (auxiliary) verbs. We can classify the way they are used as transitive or intransitive, stative or dynamic. We call the parts of the verb that can normally show inflection for such features as number, tense and person finite, and those that do not show inflection non-finite. The non-finite parts of the verb include the participles and the infinitive* (The non-finite verb that has the uninflected form of the verb - The Oxford Companion to the English Language).


    Most writers that I know of have no need for such words as verbal or verbid, because we have the well-established non-finite verb/form.


    * ... and, for some the gerund, but that is a separate issue.

  9. Piscean's Avatar
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    #9

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post

    142 million Google pages disagree. I will go with them over Quirk -- one guy with an opinion.
    How many of those are for the noun you talk about?

    If you prefer random Google hits to the one of the three or four most authoritative grammars (1) of the twentieth century, written by Quirk, Greenbaum, Leech and Svartik, four (not one) highly respected grammarians, then I'm afraid I can't take your opinions very seriously. In all your posts on grammar, I recall no occasion on which you have cited an acknowledged expert in the field.



    (1) "The greatest of contemporary grammars, because it is the most thorough and detailed we have,"


    Aarts, F. G. A. M., "A comprehensive grammar of the English language: The great tradition continued". English Studies, Vol. 69, Iss. 2, 1988

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Comp...glish_Language

  10. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #10

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    I am not reluctant to accept it. I reject it. I don't find it helpful at all.

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