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Thread: Verb or verbal?

  1. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #11

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    Your experts are your experts. They are not mine. In every field there are people on the fringe. You seem to prefer those. I value the traditional views. You are free to disagree. The English language and its teaching went on for a long time before your experts came. I don't care if you take my views seriously. For you to say that "verbal" is not accepted in the face of over 100 million hits is laughable.

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    #12

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    There are nothing like 100 million hits for the word verbal in the sense that you used it. If you can provide me with a link to a serious article or book in which the idea of verbals not being verbs, I promise to read it carefully. I have given you the names of various writers - you have given me none.

    You say you value the traditional views. That's why I quoted a writer from 1954. If you like, I'll go back earlier in the 20th century, or back to Bullokar (1586) if you wish.

  3. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #13

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    Quoting individuals has no affect on my opinion. So don't bother. Grammar is a system that hangs together if it is consistent. There are no scientific tests or proofs. Therefore, it is all about individual analysis and opinion. You keep trying to prove what is not provable. I am perfectly happy with the concept of verbals versus verbs. Evidently you are not. I can live with that.

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    #14

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    The problem for me is that you make your points about infinitives being verbals, infinitives not being verbs, verbals not being verbs, etc, in the 'Ask a Teacher' threads, and present them as if they were generally accepted ideas. I think that they are not generally accepted ideas, and that you are potentially confusing learners.

    If you can show me links to some sound books or articles on this, I may discover that there is a gap in my knowledge here, and think again about my responses. However, until you show some evidence, then I shall simply conclude that you are voicing your own opinion. While you have a perfect right to your own opinion, I, and most teachers and learners that I have encountered in my six decades of learning and teaching languages, prefer to place more value on the informed opinions of people who have seriously studied the grammar of English for many years.

  5. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #15

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    I don't really care about your problems. We argue about terminology, which is not owned by anybody. Certainly I am expressing my opinion. So are you. You say that your are speaking for the majority and I seriously doubt that. You talk about studying grammar as if there were some tablets handed down from a mountain. There were not. What do they study other than the opinions of others? This is not science. I don't need Quirk's terminology.

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    #16

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    I will go with them over Quirk -- one guy with an opinion.
    To be fair, he is not just one guy; he really is one of the authorities. He does carry a lot of weight.

    I am with Piscean on this- I see verb at the head of the family and infinitive as a subset.

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    #17

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    I'm with Piscean on this, too.
    “Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”

    — Arthur Schopenhauer

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    #18

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    And where does this authority come from?

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    #19

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    From writing some pretty serious books. A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (1985) ​was the Michael Swan of linguistics, and the other authors carry a lot of weight too. Quirk was working on corpus linguistics before computers were in use. He was one of the founders of descriptive linguistics. He is an authority.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_Quirk
    Last edited by Tdol; 08-Dec-2015 at 13:22.

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    #20

    Re: Verb or verbal?

    I am with Piscean on this- I see verb at the head of the family and infinitive as a subset.

    I don't really disagree with that. That means that an infinitive is not a verb. I see "verb" at the head of the family and verbals as subsets. They include infinitives and participles.

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