[Vocabulary] Speak a little louder/loudly

[Aamir Tariq]

When we are talking on the phone and we can't hear the person talking on the other side either because of too much noise around you or if he/she is speaking quietly. And you want him/her to speak with a louder voice, how would you say that?

Speak a little louder.
Speak a little loudly.

Regards
Aamir the Global Citizen

 

[GoesStation]

Speak a little loudly would mean "speak loudly, but not very loudly." We wouldn't say that.

 

[Aamir Tariq]

Speak a little loudly would mean "speak loudly, but not very loudly." We wouldn't say that.

So speak a little louder should be used?

 

[GoesStation]

Yes. It would be rude, though, if you didn't include "please".

 

[Aamir Tariq]

Yes. It would be rude, though, if you didn't include "please".

Yes it would be, we show a lot of respect almost to everyone in our country while we speak Urdu, And if I literally translate any such sentence in English it will sound like exaggerated respect.

 

[TheParser]

NOT A TEACHER

This is what my teachers taught me.

1. In ordinary conversation, one can say, "Please speak a little louder."

a. The music is loud.
b. The music is louder than necessary.
c. The loudest music is coming from the house with the red roof.

As you can see, "louder" is an adjective. What you need is an adverb to modify the verb "speak."

NEVERTHELESS, native speakers have no problem with that sentence, for it is short and to the point."

2. In very important writing, however, a few (some?) teachers might suggest using an adverb.

Thus" "Would you please speak a little more loudly?"

Mona speaks loudly.
Mona speaks more loudly than Raul. (Regular conversation: Mona speaks louder than Raul.)
Mona speaks the most loudly of all the students. (Regular conversation: Mona speaks the loudest of all the students.)

 

[Barb_D]

"Could you speak up a little, please?"
"Could you speak a little more loudly, please?"
"Is it possible for you to speak a bit louder? I'm having trouble hearing you."

 

[GoesStation]

Yes it would be, we show a lot of respect almost to everyone in our country while we speak Urdu, And if I literally translate any such sentence in English it will sound like exaggerated respect.

It does indeed. You're probably aware that many American and European countries outsource much of their telephone customer support to call centers in India and Pakistan. This results in frequent culture-clashes as, for example, a Pakistani representative handles a call from an American. The better call centers train their representatives to try to follow American cultural norms, but training only goes so far.

I've had conversations with representatives in the Indian subcontinent where it seemed like every other word was "sir". I understood that the person on the other end was following their customs, but I had to struggle to accept that they were merely being polite, not obsequious as it seemed from my perspective.

 

[GoesStation]

1. In ordinary conversation, one can say, "Please speak a little louder."

a. The music is loud.
b. The music is louder than necessary.
c. The loudest music is coming from the house with the red roof.

As you can see, "louder" is an adjective. What you need is an adverb to modify the verb "speak."

Your sentence 1 illustrates that louder is also an adverb. The common aphorism actions speak louder than words, attested as early as 1736, demonstrates that it's been in common use that way for several centuries.

 

[Aamir Tariq]

Let me give you an example of the level of courtesy one is showered with, If you ever come to Pakistan and talk to those who speak English in pure Pakistani way, You will just be amazed. That much respect is not even given to the President of a country in formal receptions.

Respected Mr. GoesStation it is an honor to receive you this evening, we would like you to join us for dinner tonight to honor our house with your presence.

But such conversations normally take place in Urdu. Where they may call you "dignified GoesStation" and things like that.

As far as those who work at call centers are concerned they are familiar with American norms, there are many American call centers in Islamabad where they train their customer service representatives to develop American accents. Many Pakistani Americans are running those call centers here.

 

[jutfrank]

This is what my teachers taught me.

1. In ordinary conversation, one can say, "Please speak a little louder."

a. The music is loud.
b. The music is louder than necessary.
c. The loudest music is coming from the house with the red roof.

As you can see, "louder" is an adjective. What you need is an adverb to modify the verb "speak."

Goes Station, above, is quite right. Your use of louder in 1. is as an adverb whereas your use of louder in b. is as an adjective. This shows what your teachers may have failed to understand -- that it is the use of a word that determines its class and not the form.

If a native speaker says, "You did good, kid", then good is clearly functioning as an adverb. An alternative way of speaking, granted, but still grammatically correct.

 

[jutfrank]

In standard BrE, we do nut use 'good' as an adverb; that sentence is therefore not acceptable outside informal conversation. It is misleading to say that it is grammatically correct (in the standard language).

1) The example I gave was not one of standard BrE
2) Misleading how? To whom? I thought my point was quite clear? It's not standard use but it is grammatically correct.

 

[Barb_D]

It's not standard use but it is grammatically correct.

I cannot agree. It's common, just like "You ain't seen nuthin' yet" but that doesn't make it grammatically correct. "Good" is still an adjective under the definition of "correct grammar." There are things we say all the time that aren't correct, and we accept them, but they are not "correct."

 

[GoesStation]

1) The example I gave was not one of standard BrE
2) Misleading how? To whom? I thought my point was quite clear? It's not standard use but it is grammatically correct.

Most members are here to learn a level of English that they can use in all sorts of situations. It does them a severe disservice to suggest that any grammatical form used in any register of English is correct. I know that from the point of view of a linguist, "correct" is a loaded (and probably meaningless) term. The forum's members don't care about that; they just don't want to be embarassed by using inappropriate forms.

 

[GoesStation]

Let me give you an example of the level of courtesy one is showered with, If you ever come to Pakistan and talk to those who speak English in pure Pakistani way, You will just be amazed. That much respect is not even given to the President of a country in formal receptions.

Respected Mr. GoesStation it is an honor to receive you this evening, we would like you to join us for dinner tonight to honor our house with your presence.

<SNIP>

As far as those who work at call centers are concerned they are familiar with American norms, there are many American call centers in Islamabad where they train their customer service representatives to develop American accents. Many Pakistani Americans are running those call centers here.

First, please capitalize a word only if it's a title, a proper noun, or the first word of a sentence. A comma does not end a sentence, so the following word should not be capitalized unless it's a proper noun.

As I mentioned, the level of training at call centers varies greatly. Many of them have staffs which acquit themselves very well in American English; others, not so much. Few of their agents ever achieve anything remotely like an American accent (something which is rarely possible for adult learners of a foreign language), but many of them do learn to communicate comfortably with Americans. Cultural norms are extremely strong; no matter how thorough the training, most agents will lapse from time to time to avoid saying something which seems terribly rude from their cultural perspective.

One British company I deal with has its call center in Pakistan, I believe. The agents there speak fluent English but it's so heavily accented that I can barely understand it. I resort to repeating what I think they said after each sentence. I grew up surrounded by people speaking differently-accented English, so I can decode a lot of challenging accents. These people defeat me though.

Adding to the challenge is what feels like their obsequious nature. This is not an exaggeration, and might sound normal in Urdu: "No, sir, please don't do that, sir. Sir, may I respectfully ask you, sir, to try this, sir?"

I think this company is run by Pakistani immigrants to the UK who are not aware of the insufficient English of their call-center staff.

 

[jutfrank]

Barb_D

I'm saying that in the example "speak louder", the word "louder" is operating as an adverb, not an adjective. It's modifying the verb, so it's grammatically correct. If it's an adverb, it's correct, if it's an adjective, it's not.

"Good" is still an adjective under the definition of "correct grammar."

With respect, this view is simply mistaken. It's the use of words, in context, that give them their word class. Is 'drive fast' incorrect because 'fast' is an adjective? Some words can be used in different ways, in different classes.

"There are things we say all the time that aren't correct, and we accept them, but they are not "correct."

Yes, quite right. This shows that language can be grammatically incorrect and still sound natural and have an appropriate effect.

(Are you suggesting I'm saying that "You ain't seen nuthin' yet" is grammatically correct? (I'm not - it isn't.) It is, though, a good example of natural, non-standard speech. I reckon it surely had the desired effect when Ronald Reagan famously used it.)

 

[jutfrank]

Most members are here to learn a level of English that they can use in all sorts of situations. It does them a severe disservice to suggest that any grammatical form used in any register of English is correct.

Yes, of course. As a professional, I'm well aware that one of my tasks as a teacher of English in use is to tell students which forms are grammatically correct and which are not, but more importantly, which forms are more appropriate to what they want to say. This is one of the challenges of teaching such a varied and evolving language -- some forms can be incorrect but appropriate and some can be correct but inappropriate. It's important for learners over a certain level to understand this.

I know that from the point of view of a linguist, "correct" is a loaded (and probably meaningless) term. The forum's members don't care about that; they just don't want to be embarassed by using inappropriate forms.

Well, I don't think many linguists would consider the term meaningless but rather vague and often misused. When people on this forum ask "Is this sentence correct?", sometimes they are asking about grammatical accuracy, and sometimes they are asking about appropriacy, perhaps to avoid embarrassment, as you say. Very often they are not even aware of this distinction between grammatical correctness and appropriacy.

 

[jutfrank]

Quite. To a descriptive linguist, You ain't not seen nothing yet is, in at least one sense, 'grammatical' However, it would be considered incorrect in any examination, and sub-standard in most situations. It is our responsibility as teachers to tell learners this.

Yes, good example. The triple negative here is very unclear, awkward, unnatural, distracting and seemingly rather useless. From a teacher's point of view it certainly needs 'correcting' even though it is grammatical in the sense that it obeys the rules of grammar - that is, the words are all in the right positions.

 

[GoesStation]

When people on this forum ask "Is this sentence correct?", sometimes they are asking about grammatical accuracy, and sometimes they are asking about appropriacy, perhaps to avoid embarrassment, as you say. Very often they are not even aware of this distinction between grammatical correctness and appropriacy.

We often describe sample sentences as correct (or not) and natural (or unnatural). Members seem to grasp the concepts readily enough.

 

[jutfrank]

We often describe sample sentences as correct (or not) and natural (or unnatural). Members seem to grasp the concepts readily enough.

Okay, thanks. If I continue dealing with queries on this forum, I'll try to follow your lead until I get a better sense of the customs and culture here. Maybe I'll avoid using the word 'correct' completely!


P.S. I apologise to Aamir The Global Citizen for hijacking his post.