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    #61

    Re: a very confusing sentence concerning the third conditional of "if"

    Quote Originally Posted by man of manners View Post
    I agree with this but do you agree with me on this, "putting two sentences, with a time conjunction such as "after", in the past perfect is only allowed in the existence of a third past action in the past simple"?
    Probably not.
    Also, why don't you tackle the second sentence?
    a) I prefer to sort out one question at a time. in order to prevent a thread becoming hopelessly confused.
    b) I do not have unlimited time to deal with your questions. In between the essential work of responding to questions here, I occasionally have to deal with luxuries such as eating, drinking and excreting.

  2. man of manners's Avatar
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    #62

    Re: a very confusing sentence concerning the third conditional of "if"

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    Probably not.
    Why not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    a) I prefer to sort out one question at a time. in order to prevent a thread becoming hopelessly confused.
    b) I do not have unlimited time to deal with your questions. In between the essential work of responding to questions here, I occasionally have to deal with luxuries such as eating, drinking and excreting.
    OK, thanks for your precious time. :)

  3. Matthew Wai's Avatar
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    #63

    Re: a very confusing sentence concerning the third conditional of "if"

    Quote Originally Posted by man of manners View Post
    "putting two sentences, with a time conjunction such as "after", in the past perfect is only allowed in the existence of a third past action in the past simple"
    There is no simple past in 'He had been single since his wife had died of cancer', where 'since' is a time conjunction.
    Last edited by Matthew Wai; 21-Jul-2016 at 09:54.
    I am not a teacher.

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    #64

    Re: a very confusing sentence concerning the third conditional of "if"

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Wai View Post
    There is no simple past in 'He had been single since his wife had died of cancer', where 'since' is a time conjunction.
    Do you mean that what I have said is right except with "since"?

  5. Matthew Wai's Avatar
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    #65

    Re: a very confusing sentence concerning the third conditional of "if"

    I am afraid that a teacher will find another exception as soon as I say 'yes'.
    I am not a teacher.

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    #66

    Re: a very confusing sentence concerning the third conditional of "if"

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Wai View Post
    I am afraid that a teacher will find another exception as soon as I say 'yes'.
    generally, do you find what I have said right?
    I mean without taking exceptions into consideration.
    Last edited by man of manners; 21-Jul-2016 at 09:51.

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    #67

    Re: a very confusing sentence concerning the third conditional of "if"

    Also, can we substitute the ordinary past simple for the past perfect after "if"? Would the sentence be acceptable then?

  8. Matthew Wai's Avatar
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    #68

    Re: a very confusing sentence concerning the third conditional of "if"

    Quote Originally Posted by man of manners View Post
    "putting two sentences, with a time conjunction such as "after", in the past perfect is only allowed in the existence of a third past action in the past simple"
    I think it is not so much 'allowed' as 'reasonable'.

    Quote Originally Posted by man of manners View Post
    Also, can we substitute the ordinary past simple for the past perfect after "if"? Would the sentence be acceptable then?
    The if-clause will change from the third conditional to the second.
    I am not a teacher.

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    #69

    Re: a very confusing sentence concerning the third conditional of "if"

    Quote Originally Posted by man of manners View Post
    I agree with this but do you agree with me on this, "putting two sentences, with a time conjunction such as "after", in the past perfect is only allowed in the existence of a third past action in the past simple"?
    It would really be much, much simpler to answer your questions if you gave examples, as I've mentioned before. Then we wouldn't have to guess what you mean by "putting two sentences, with a time conjunction such as "after", in the past perfect'.

    In your sentences in #58, here's my opinion:
    1- "Did you know that Jonathan had been was punished because he had behaved badly?" (No more recent relevant action.)
    1- "Did you know that Jonathan had already been punished when you decided to suspend him?" (This makes sense.)

    2- "[She missed the English lesson because she had been ill], so [she phoned her friend and asked what homework they had been given."]
    While you have one clause in the simple past, this is only necessary, not sufficient to warrant all those past perfects. That is, a recent action in the simple past does not justify putting all the other clauses into the past perfect. As I've amended it, you have 2 x 2 clauses, and in each case, you have a simple past and a past perfect.

  10. man of manners's Avatar
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    #70

    Re: a very confusing sentence concerning the third conditional of "if"

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    It would really be much, much simpler to answer your questions if you gave examples, as I've mentioned before. Then we wouldn't have to guess what you mean by "putting two sentences, with a time conjunction such as "after", in the past perfect'.
    I mean a sentence like this one:
    He had played well after his trainer had encouraged him. Do you find it acceptable or natural? Also, can you give your opinion on these sentences, please? [tell the difference in meaning if you please.]

    1-He had trained hard after his trainer had told him that he was a loser.
    2-He had trained hard after his trainer told him that he had been a loser.

    Now, don't worry. I am collecting examples from Google and I will put them here to discuss them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    In your sentences in #58, here's my opinion:
    1- "Did you know that Jonathan had been was punished because he had behaved badly?" (No more recent relevant action.)
    1- "Did you know that Jonathan had already been punished when you decided to suspend him?" (This makes sense.)
    I don't understand why you changed "had been" into "was" in the first example? [give further explanation, please] Natives has said it is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    2- "[She missed the English lesson because she had been ill], so [she phoned her friend and asked what homework they had been given."]
    While you have one clause in the simple past, this is only necessary, not sufficient to warrant all those past perfects. That is, a recent action in the simple past does not justify putting all the other clauses into the past perfect. As I've amended it, you have 2 x 2 clauses, and in each case, you have a simple past and a past perfect.
    I tend to agree with your analysis, because it is somewhat logical, but I don't understand why you can't leave "had missed" and not change it into "missed" although it can be accepted as grammatically correct, can't it? [give further explanation, please]
    Last edited by man of manners; 21-Jul-2016 at 17:33.

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