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    #1

    Exclamation Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

    Hi,

    Are the following figures of speech used correctly in the following sentences?

    1. Jack is a lion. (Metaphor)
    2. Jack is a lion (sarcasm, if it is told in a satcastic tone and we actually want to say that he is a coward)
    3. The lion entered the room. (Metonymy, because "lion" has been replaced with "Jack")

    Moreover, the use of metaphor and metonymy are confusing here. What is the difference between them?

    Thanks in advance.

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    #2

    Re: Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

    I am not a teacher.

    Professor Paul Fry:

    "The principle of the poetic function, however, can be understood then as the metaphorization of what is otherwise metonymic. In other words, if I put together a sentence, what I'm doing is I'm putting words next to each other, and that's what metonymy is. Metonymy is a selection of signs, if you will, that go appropriately next to each other according to the rules of grammar and syntax and according to the rules of logic, right; but also perhaps in the ways in which the rhetorical device of metonymy can be understood. If I say "hut" instead of "house"--I'm using an example actually taken from Jakobson's "aphasia" essay--and if I say, "The hut is small," there is a metonymic relationship implied with houses, shacks, mansions, and other sorts of edifice, but which can only really be resolved, perhaps, by the unfolding of the logic of the sentence as in when I say, "The hut is small." So combinatory processes--borrowing the rhetorical term "metonymy" as "that which is next to each other"--are basically metonymic. The available signs to be selected, on the other hand, on the axis of selection are selected for certain purposes if they are metaphoric. Obviously, if I'm just making a sentence, I'm not selecting signs because they're metaphoric. I select them because they go easily next to each other, either for reasons of grammar or syntax or logic."

    Source: http://oyc.yale.edu/english/engl-300/lecture-5

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    #3

    Re: Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

    Thank you for answering my post. But, it was really difficult to inderstand. would you please provide answer to the sentences that I provided in my question?
    Last edited by Rover_KE; 11-Oct-2016 at 09:21.

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    #4

    Re: Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

    Have you read the Similar Threads below?

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    #5

    Re: Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

    Quote Originally Posted by Venus.jam View Post
    Hi,

    Are the following figures of speech used correctly in the following sentences?

    1. Jack is a lion. (Metaphor)
    2. Jack is a lion (sarcasm, if it is told in a satcastic tone and we actually want to say that he is a coward)
    3. The lion entered the room. (Metonymy, because "lion" has been replaced with "Jack")

    Moreover, the use of metaphor and metonymy are confusing here. What is the difference between them?

    Thanks in advance.
    #1 is correct.
    #2 could be correct; sarcasm is frequently a function of our tone of voice and so doesn't work so well in written form. You might help that here by saying, "Jack is a real lion", he said with a snicker.

    #3 doesn't work. Consider:
    In metaphor, this substitution is based on some specific analogy between two things, whereas in metonymy the substitution is based on some understood association or contiguity. [emphasis added] -- source

    Your attempt at metonymy fails because Jack being a lion is not "some understood association".

    When Obama and his entourage landed in Hangzhou for the G20, a metonymy could be, "...when the White House came to Hangzhou...". We understand that "White House" refers to the President and his group here - all the world knew what was actually happening, and the reference between the White House and the POTUS is well recognized.

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    #6

    Re: Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

    Quote Originally Posted by ChinaDan View Post
    #3 doesn't work. Consider:
    In metaphor, this substitution is based on some specific analogy between two things, whereas in metonymy the substitution is based on some understood association or contiguity. [emphasis added] -- source

    Your attempt at metonymy fails because Jack being a lion is not "some understood association".
    I my view, the association between "lion" and "Jack" became understood in the chain of references provided by the text. Sentence # 1/2 makes clear that the lion mentioned in Sentence # 3 is Jack. Then in # 3 the signifier "lion" is used to signify "Jack", in an association one assumes the reader of the text will be able to make. So it is a metonymy.

    I am not a teacher.
    Last edited by fabio409; 13-Oct-2016 at 17:38.

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    #7

    Re: Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

    I was not feeling very confident and a I did some more research in a couple of books and on Internet.


    Here a good explanation of a chain of references of a text providing metonymical relationship -- the same thing said by Professor Paul Fry in the quotation above -- and being recognized only after a term is understood. It is "better classified as a synecdoche [type of metonymy] in view (...) of the amount of reconstruction required of the reader...":


    https://books.google.com.br/books?id...rstood&f=false


    [ Horace's Ode 1.12: http://www.poetryintranslation.com/P...or_Toc39402018 ]


    The same idea in Answer # 5 on this thread:
    https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/t...y-and-Polysemy


    I am not a teacher. I intend to write a paper on Psychoanalysis applied to the literary analysis the work of a brazilian writer in the next years as an undergraduate student. That's why I'm very interested "metaphoric and metonymic modes" [title of the Chapter # 2 of the book whose excerpt is linked above].

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    #8

    Re: Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

    I don't honestly see why #3 is metonymy. Using Washington or The White House for the government of the US is metonymy.

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    #9

    Re: Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    I don't honestly see why #3 is metonymy. Using Washington or The White House for the government of the US is metonymy.

    Dear teacher,

    I think the examples that you made, such as "Washington or The White House for the government of the US" are examples of metonymy which are well-known all over the world and all English users are familiar with them. However, I think there are some specific examples in other languages as well which can also be considered as examples of metonymy, even though ONLY a particular group of people may be familiar with them. let me clarify my point.
    In one of the previous posts I noticed this sentence "in metonymy the substitution is based on some understood association or contiguity. all the world knew what was actually happening". So as I mentioned before, the reference between "Washington or The White House" and "the government of the US" are well recognized.
    Shiite Muslims refer to Ali ibn Abi Talib as "God's Lion". Because they believe that he was as brave and as strong as a lion. In fact, Ali ibn Abi Talib was the cousin and son-in-law of Muhammed, the prophet of God. In one of the battles Ali was the commander of the Muslim army and after that battle Mohammad (pbuh) called Ali "Asadullah", which in Arabic means "Lion of God". Thus, I think in this case the reference between "lion" and the Ali is well recognized as well. But, as I stated before, this "understood association or contiguity" exist only among Shiite Muslims.
    I was wondering if this is a good justification.

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    #10

    Re: Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    I don't honestly see why #3 is metonymy. Using Washington or The White House for the government of the US is metonymy.
    It seems to me that this is the "simple metonymy" mentioned in Chapter 1 of the book I linked. The one that is not a synecdoche, a more complex type of metonymy explained in Chapter 2: "Quintilian (...) defines it [synecdoche] as 'capable of giving variety to style by making us understand many things from one (...) what follows from what precedes, or all of these vice-versa'...".

    In the next paragraph: "consolatio (...) should be understood (...) as a synecdoche" because "it is substituted for something which the poet will express direct ly later".

    In my view, based on the explanations above, this is the case of Sentence # 3. "Lion" substitutes "Frank", something which the author of the text expressed directly before, in Sentence # 1/2. Is not a "simple metonymy", paradigmatic [that what makes it simple. The relationship is known in a certain community and text is not necessary to make it], but a more complex type of metonymy known as synecdoche, syntagmatic.

    I am not a teacher.
    Last edited by fabio409; 15-Oct-2016 at 23:58.

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