[General] Sarcasm, metaphor, and metonymy

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Venus.jam

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Hi,

Are the following figures of speech used correctly in the following sentences?

1. Jack is a lion. (Metaphor)
2. Jack is a lion (sarcasm, if it is told in a satcastic tone and we actually want to say that he is a coward)
3. The lion entered the room. (Metonymy, because "lion" has been replaced with "Jack")

Moreover, the use of metaphor and metonymy are confusing here. What is the difference between them?

Thanks in advance.
 

fabio409

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I am not a teacher.

Professor Paul Fry:

"The principle of the poetic function, however, can be understood then as the metaphorization of what is otherwise metonymic. In other words, if I put together a sentence, what I'm doing is I'm putting words next to each other, and that's what metonymy is. Metonymy is a selection of signs, if you will, that go appropriately next to each other according to the rules of grammar and syntax and according to the rules of logic, right; but also perhaps in the ways in which the rhetorical device of metonymy can be understood. If I say "hut" instead of "house"--I'm using an example actually taken from Jakobson's "aphasia" essay--and if I say, "The hut is small," there is a metonymic relationship implied with houses, shacks, mansions, and other sorts of edifice, but which can only really be resolved, perhaps, by the unfolding of the logic of the sentence as in when I say, "The hut is small." So combinatory processes--borrowing the rhetorical term "metonymy" as "that which is next to each other"--are basically metonymic. The available signs to be selected, on the other hand, on the axis of selection are selected for certain purposes if they are metaphoric. Obviously, if I'm just making a sentence, I'm not selecting signs because they're metaphoric. I select them because they go easily next to each other, either for reasons of grammar or syntax or logic."

Source: http://oyc.yale.edu/english/engl-300/lecture-5
 

Venus.jam

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Thank you for answering my post. But, it was really difficult to inderstand. would you please provide answer to the sentences that I provided in my question?:)
 
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Rover_KE

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Have you read the Similar Threads below?
 

ChinaDan

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Hi,

Are the following figures of speech used correctly in the following sentences?

1. Jack is a lion. (Metaphor)
2. Jack is a lion (sarcasm, if it is told in a satcastic tone and we actually want to say that he is a coward)
3. The lion entered the room. (Metonymy, because "lion" has been replaced with "Jack")

Moreover, the use of metaphor and metonymy are confusing here. What is the difference between them?

Thanks in advance.

#1 is correct.
#2 could be correct; sarcasm is frequently a function of our tone of voice and so doesn't work so well in written form. You might help that here by saying, "Jack is a real lion", he said with a snicker.

#3 doesn't work. Consider:
In metaphor, this substitution is based on some specific analogy between two things, whereas in metonymy the substitution is based on some understood association or contiguity. [emphasis added] -- source

Your attempt at metonymy fails because Jack being a lion is not "some understood association".

When Obama and his entourage landed in Hangzhou for the G20, a metonymy could be, "...when the White House came to Hangzhou...". We understand that "White House" refers to the President and his group here - all the world knew what was actually happening, and the reference between the White House and the POTUS is well recognized.
 

fabio409

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#3 doesn't work. Consider:
In metaphor, this substitution is based on some specific analogy between two things, whereas in metonymy the substitution is based on some understood association or contiguity. [emphasis added] -- source

Your attempt at metonymy fails because Jack being a lion is not "some understood association".

I my view, the association between "lion" and "Jack" became understood in the chain of references provided by the text. Sentence # 1/2 makes clear that the lion mentioned in Sentence # 3 is Jack. Then in # 3 the signifier "lion" is used to signify "Jack", in an association one assumes the reader of the text will be able to make. So it is a metonymy.

I am not a teacher.
 
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fabio409

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I was not feeling very confident and a I did some more research in a couple of books and on Internet.


Here a good explanation of a chain of references of a text providing metonymical relationship -- the same thing said by Professor Paul Fry in the quotation above -- and being recognized only after a term is understood. It is "better classified as a synecdoche [type of metonymy] in view (...) of the amount of reconstruction required of the reader...":


https://books.google.com.br/books?i...e&q=metonymy in literature understood&f=false


[ Horace's Ode 1.12: http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/HoraceOdesBkI.htm#anchor_Toc39402018 ]


The same idea in Answer # 5 on this thread:
https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/threads/66867-Metonymy-and-Polysemy


I am not a teacher. I intend to write a paper on Psychoanalysis applied to the literary analysis the work of a brazilian writer in the next years as an undergraduate student. That's why I'm very interested "metaphoric and metonymic modes" [title of the Chapter # 2 of the book whose excerpt is linked above].
 

Tdol

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I don't honestly see why #3 is metonymy. Using Washington or The White House for the government of the US is metonymy.
 

Venus.jam

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I don't honestly see why #3 is metonymy. Using Washington or The White House for the government of the US is metonymy.


Dear teacher,

I think the examples that you made, such as "Washington or The White House for the government of the US" are examples of metonymy which are well-known all over the world and all English users are familiar with them. However, I think there are some specific examples in other languages as well which can also be considered as examples of metonymy, even though ONLY a particular group of people may be familiar with them. let me clarify my point.
In one of the previous posts I noticed this sentence "in metonymy the substitution is based on some understood association or contiguity. all the world knew what was actually happening". So as I mentioned before, the reference between "Washington or The White House" and "the government of the US" are well recognized.
Shiite Muslims refer to Ali ibn Abi Talib as "God's Lion". Because they believe that he was as brave and as strong as a lion. In fact, Ali ibn Abi Talib was the cousin and son-in-law of Muhammed, the prophet of God. In one of the battles Ali was the commander of the Muslim army and after that battle Mohammad (pbuh) called Ali "Asadullah", which in Arabic means "Lion of God". Thus, I think in this case the reference between "lion" and the Ali is well recognized as well. But, as I stated before, this "understood association or contiguity" exist only among Shiite Muslims.
I was wondering if this is a good justification.
 

fabio409

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I don't honestly see why #3 is metonymy. Using Washington or The White House for the government of the US is metonymy.

It seems to me that this is the "simple metonymy" mentioned in Chapter 1 of the book I linked. The one that is not a synecdoche, a more complex type of metonymy explained in Chapter 2: "Quintilian (...) defines it [synecdoche] as 'capable of giving variety to style by making us understand many things from one (...) what follows from what precedes, or all of these vice-versa'...".

In the next paragraph: "consolatio (...) should be understood (...) as a synecdoche" because "it is substituted for something which the poet will express direct ly later".

In my view, based on the explanations above, this is the case of Sentence # 3. "Lion" substitutes "Frank", something which the author of the text expressed directly before, in Sentence # 1/2. Is not a "simple metonymy", paradigmatic [that what makes it simple. The relationship is known in a certain community and text is not necessary to make it], but a more complex type of metonymy known as synecdoche, syntagmatic.

I am not a teacher.
 
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Venus.jam

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I my view, the association between "lion" and "Jack" became understood in the chain of references provided by the text. Sentence # 1/2 makes clear that the lion mentioned in Sentence # 3 is Jack. Then in # 3 the signifier "lion" is used to signify "Jack", in an association one assumes the reader of the text will be able to make. So it is a metonymy.

I am not a teacher.

I was just wondering if this is the context which can help us recognize the association or contiguity that exist between two entities and hence naming it as metonymy.
I mean it seems to me that apart from well-known and widely-used metonymies, some metonymies can be also be creatively created within a text by creating association between two entities like the examples given in my first post. In this way, an author can sets the scene and introduce a character, e.g. Jack was a lion. Then in later sentences he may say "the lion entered .....". Thus, in this example the context helps us to identify that "lion" is a metonymy. I'd be happy if anyone let me know his/her opinion on this issue.
 

Venus.jam

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I would not cal 'The Lion of God' metonymy. It is a title bestowed in honour.

Your third sentence is not an example of metonymy. You are simply carring on with the mwtaphor.

Is the third sentence again an example of metaphor?
 

Tdol

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Sentence # 1/2 makes clear that the lion mentioned in Sentence # 3 is Jack. Then in # 3 the signifier "lion" is used to signify "Jack", in an association one assumes the reader of the text will be able to make. So it is a metonymy.

They don't because they contradict each other- the association is far from clear. Is he a lion or a coward?
 

Venus.jam

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They don't because they contradict each other- the association is far from clear. Is he a lion or a coward?

Well, how about sentence 1 and 3? They do not contradict each other. I mean if we had only sentence 1 and 3, could we claim that sentence 3 is a metonymy?
or if we had a sentence like "Jack is like a lion" instead of sentence 2, would the result be a metonymy in this case?
 

Venus.jam

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No. An isolated sentence is not enough to establish 'some understood association'.

I see. What about a text, e.g. a novel, in which an association is established. I mean after a specific character was presented as a "lion" for example because of his/her special traits, the story would use "lion" instead of the name of the character. Thus, the reader can understand who the writer has intended based on some kind of association that has already been established in the story.
Moreover, what is the use of "metonymy"? Do we use "metonymy" in order not to repeat something over and over again?
For example: "He drank the bottle". Why not "he drank water"?!
 

Tdol

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I don't see a great deal of point in stretching definitions to encompass all sorts of things that might possibly be seen in a certain light as possible cases- it ends up watering down the term.
 

fabio409

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Well, how about sentence 1 and 3? They do not contradict each other. I mean if we had only sentence 1 and 3, could we claim that sentence 3 is a metonymy?
or if we had a sentence like "Jack is like a lion" instead of sentence 2, would the result be a metonymy in this case?

[ I am not a teacher. ]


Venus, regarding your post # 3, you're welcome. I didn't remember to say that. I'm sorry. Better late than never.

Dear teachers, thank you for your answers to my comments trying to help Venus. With the due respect, my view is not the same as yours. My conclusion on the issue is based on what I read in books written by teachers too, especially Paul Fry and and Craig Kallendorf (the author or the book I've linked in my last answer).

As I'm very interested in this issue, as I said, I've studied it more profoundly and I'm pleased to share on the following Google Docs file part of the notes and sketches I've made on the issue on my notebook about Literary Science:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17wJPpFNXpCc_hb9GjGyaBkE1m99nLaMWRR2N3P6iKHM/edit?usp=sharing

If occasionaly someone gets interested in my analysis and detect any mistake in it, I'll be interested in discussing it. Unnecessary to say that my aim is not to win a debate, but to learn.

I my view, both Sentences 1 and 2 make clear that when the author of the text refers to "Lion" in Sentence 3, he actually refers to "Jack". That's the point. In other words, it doesn't matter if we had before a metaphor (Sentence 1) or an irony (Sentence 2). Something that was said before in the text makes clear to the reader that there's a substitution of "Jack" for "Lion" in Sentence 3; and that makes of "Lion" a metoymical signifier.


Let's suppose that we have only Sentece 3 and absolutely no context (no text and not even the sound, image or video of a man entering a room). In this case, how would the reader get to know that the author of the text is saying not that a real lion entered the room, but actually a man called "Jack"? Without context, an isolated Sentence 3 necessarily conveys the idea that "Lion" is the arbitrary signifier linked to the concept of a certain animal: there would be neither a metaphor nor a metonymy.

The reader knows that "Jack", and not really a lion, entered the room because something that was written before (a metaphor/ an irony in previous sentences) gave him this piece of informátion. So there's a substituion in Sentence 3 that is only possible to make by the reading of the text. The difference to "The White House said that..." is that epistemic/encyclopedical knowlegde in a certain culture -- and not something that was said before in the text -- made possible the association between the signifier "White House" and the signified "government of USA".

"Lion" is a methaphorical sigifier or an "ironical signifier" (quotation marks because I didn't have time to read about irony as a trope and I don't know whether this expression is technically used) in Sentence 3 (as well as a metonymy) only because we had a metaphor / an irony in previous sentences that established to the reader's view an association between "Lion" and "Jack".

So in Sentence 3 "Lion" works simultaneously as

a) a metaphor/irony, previously made on Sentence 1/2 [the signifier "Lion" foregrounds the arbitrary signifier "Jack"];

b) a metonymy in the substition of "Jack" for "Lion", given that the metaphor/irony previously established a intratextual (syntagmatic) contiguity between "Lion" and " (concept of) Jack", metaphorical signifier and arbitrary signified, respectively [the metaphorical signifier "Lion" foregrounds the signified "Jack" (as a concept)].

I have to make a correction. I said in my last comment that Sentence 3 was a synechdoche. After the more profound analysis I made, the one shown on the text linked above, I've conclued that it is a "simple metonymy" constructed by a direct association made intratextually -- and not by what characterizes a synecdoche: a more complex association (a "condensation", to Jakobson) that requires the use of logic.
 
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