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    #21

    Re: in spite of I am tired

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    I consider the first comma optional in the revision I suggested even though "even though"-clauses usually are set off by commas.
    Shouldn't it be "the first comma being optional" or "the first comma is optional" ?

    Thank you.
    Last edited by hhtt21; 27-Feb-2017 at 22:42.

  2. jutfrank's Avatar
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    #22

    Re: in spite of I am tired

    Quote Originally Posted by hhtt21 View Post
    Shouldn't it be "the first comma being optional" or "the first comma is optional" ?
    No. What Phaedrus wrote was correct. He was using this structure:

    consider + something + adjective

  3. Phaedrus's Avatar
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    #23

    Re: in spite of I am tired

    Yes. The same idea can be conveyed by sentences which are structured differently.
    Indeed. Just to clarify how my suggestion relates to the others, hhtt21 asked the following question:

    Would you please explain why "in spite of I'm tired" is incorrect?
    "In spite of I am tired" is not just slightly incorrect; it is totally ungrammatical. There are two ways of fixing it:

    1. We can correct "I am tired" and leave "in spite of."
    2. We can correct "in spite of" and leave "I am tired."

    You guys took the first approach. I took the second. Both are valid approaches. Both correct hhtt21's ungrammatical specimen. And both converge at the level of meaning.

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    #24

    Re: in spite of I am tired

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Quite different? "Even though I am tired" is identical in meaning to "in spite of (my) being tired."
    The two are not identical in meaning.

  5. Matthew Wai's Avatar
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    #25

    Re: in spite of I am tired

    Quote Originally Posted by hhtt21 View Post
    "the first comma is optional" ?
    It can be used in 'I think the first comma is optional'.
    You still leave a space between a quotation mark and a question mark.
    I am not a teacher.

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    #26

    Re: in spite of I am tired

    The two are not identical in meaning.
    Thanks, Piscean, but merely contradicting my assertion neither justifies that they differ in meaning nor explains how they differ in meaning if you are right that they do.

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    #27

    Re: in spite of I am tired

    True. I had no wish to sidetrack the thread.

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    #28

    Re: in spite of I am tired

    Well, I think you're wrong in thinking that the two formulations aren't identical in meaning, no matter how many moderators here "like" that post of yours.

    "Likes" don't form an argument, though they can have the effect of ganging up on someone.

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    #29

    Re: in spite of I am tired

    There are very few exact synonyms in English, i.e., words/phrases with identical meanings, Phaedrus.

    "Even though I am tired" and "in spite of my being tired" are very similar in meaning indeed, but the second gives slightly greater stress to the contrast of ideas, in my opinion.

    Incidentally, I don't think one person (at the time of submitting this post) liking my post has any effect of 'ganging up' on anybody.
    Last edited by Rover_KE; 01-Mar-2017 at 00:18.

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    #30

    Re: in spite of I am tired

    There are very few exact synonyms in English, i.e., words/phrases with identical meanings, Phaedrus.
    But in certain sentences some words and phrases have exactly the same semantics, Piscean, even if distinctions between them are observable in other sentences.

    "Even though I am tired" and "in spite of my being tired" are very similar in meaning indeed, but the second gives slightly greater stress to the contrast of ideas, in my opinion.
    Thank you. I won't dispute that, even if I'm not sure I share your view. What I appreciate is having more than a bald contradiction. None of this is off-topic, incidentally. That the following two sentences are very close in meaning, if not exactly synonymous, is central to this thread:

    (a) I have to go to school today in spite of my being tired.
    (b) I have to go to school today even though I am tired.

    *I have to go to school in spite of I am tired is just as ungrammatical as *I have to go to school even though my being tired. "I am tired" is a finite clause; "my being tired" is a noun phrase. A preposition like "of" or "despite" (or a compound preposition like "in spite of") can be complemented by a noun phrase but not by a finite clause. A complementizer or subordinating conjunction like "(even) though" can be complemented by a finite clause but not by a noun phrase.

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