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  1. Piscean's Avatar
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    #21

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    I disagree that it's useful to class 1.1 and 1.2 as phrasal verbs or multi-word verbs since only one of the elements is a verb, the other being a preposition phrase.
    I agree that it was not helpful to put my group 1.1, Verbs followed by a preposition, under the overall title of 'Multi-word verbs'. I did, in that paragraph, write 'We are not dealing with multi-word verbs here', but I should have separated that group more clearly.

    I stand by my decision to include my group 1,1, Prepositional verbs, under the overall title. As I wrote, 'the underlined word-pairs take on a meaning beyond the literal meanings of the original verb and preposition, (though it may be possible to see the meaning as metaphorical extensions of those literal meanings)'. It is also unfortunately the case that some dictionaries and course books class at least some of these verbs as 'phrasal verbs'.
    (For similar reasons, I don't accept 1.6 as a class, either.)
    I would not argue that it was a separate class.

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    #22

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    I agree that it was not helpful to put my group 1.1, Verbs followed by a preposition, under the overall title of 'Multi-word verbs'. I did, in that paragraph, write 'We are not dealing with multi-word verbs here'
    Okay, I missed that.

    It is also unfortunately the case that some dictionaries and course books class at least some of these verbs as 'phrasal verbs'.
    Yes, this is my main point. I feel that some publications, in the way they carelessly present language, do more harm than good. This is particularly true in the area of multi-word verbs.

    Thank you.

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    #23

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    I agree. I wrote that article originally in an attempt to clear up some of the confusion. I was not entirely successful.

    If everybody adopted the same terminology (not necessarily mine), things would be a lot easier for learners.

  3. Leslie1
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    #24

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Inconsistency in terminology is a problem.Murphy's Grammar in Use(Cambridge) is clear for students: the sections of Verb + Preposition isfollowed by Phrasal Verbs. The distinction can be: Verb + Preposition -- the sum of the parts equal the whole; Phrasal Verb -- one knows what "eat" means, one knows what "out" means, one does not automatically know what "eat out" means (the sum of the parts does not equal the whole).

    I think the author of this thread was interested in a rule distinguishing separable and non-separable phrasal verbs.

    1. If the phrasal verb is inseparable, it is intransitive. TRUE Rule 1 Tempers seem to be boiling over (inseparable and intransitive)

    2. If the phrasal verb is intransitive, it is either separable or inseparable. Tempers seem to be boiling over (inseparable and intransitive)

    The teacher called on me. Call on takes an object. It is inseparable but transitive.


    3. If it is separable, it must be transitive. I called her up. I called up Mary. TRUE Rule 2

    But this all useless, as one is looking for a rule about what is separable and what is inseparable; not what is transitive and what is intransitive.

    So a clearer definition of what is a phrasal verb is in order?

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    #25

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Are you sure about rule 2? Wouldn't you have to confirm rule 2 by showing a separable intransitive verb?

  4. Leslie1
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    #26

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    That would conflict with Rule 1, so it's not possible. There are no separable intransitive phrasal verbs. But if there is please show one. But an earlier helpfully pointed out that it is true by definition, an analytic a priori rule: separable intransitive verbs are a logical impossibility the previous writer can e interpreted as saying.

    So I respectfully request that the editor please indicate one example of a separable intransitive phrasal verb.

    Thank you.

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    #27

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie1 View Post
    There are no separable intransitive phrasal verbs.
    Of course there aren't if (and only if) you restrict the meaning of 'separable' to 'separable by a direct object.'. If you do that, then your sentence above is as useful as "There are no living dead men".

  6. Leslie1
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    #28

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    So let's assume that one should not restrict the meaning of 'separable' to 'separable by a direct object.'

    Then it would be helpful if you would clearly specify the meaning and concept and provide and example of a
    separable intransitive phrasal verb from your perspective.



  7. Leslie1
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    #29

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    I really appreciate the comment about the usefulness of reflecting on the concept of "living dead men," motivated I imagine by a consideration of Derrida: "Zombies are cinematic inscriptions of the failure of the life/death opposition. They show where classificatory order breaks down: they mark the limits of order. Like all undecidables, zombies infect the oppositions grouped around them."

    It seems that Derrida's remark is substantially relevant to this issue of classification schemes associated with phrasal verbs. Every discussion of phrasal verbs seems to break down in some regard, but if we keep the conversation going, some principles will emerge. We just might be looking at this from the wrong perspective. That's my suspicion. There is an answer. We need a paradigm shift. We're looking at the sun and can't help but imagine it revolving around earth. We're looking at phrasal verbs and can't but help imagine that they are ... what?

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    #30

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Leslie, it's just not possible to give absolute rules about phrasal verbs, because, as I have said, there is no general agreement about which combinations are phrasal verbs.. There never will be.

    We can't even agree (assuming we accept that 'take off' is a phrasal verb') on whether 'The plane took slowly off' is acceptable or not.

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