Page 4 of 5 First 1 2 3 4 5 Last
Results 31 to 40 of 50
  1. Editor, UsingEnglish.com
    English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • Japan

    • Join Date: Nov 2002
    • Posts: 67,302
    #31

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie1 View Post
    That would conflict with Rule 1, so it's not possible. There are no separable intransitive phrasal verbs. But if there is please show one. But an earlier helpfully pointed out that it is true by definition, an analytic a priori rule: separable intransitive verbs are a logical impossibility the previous writer can e interpreted as saying.

    So I respectfully request that the editor please indicate one example of a separable intransitive phrasal verb.
    I'm not trying to- I am trying to make sense of this second rule. I think it's wrong.

  2. Editor, UsingEnglish.com
    English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • Japan

    • Join Date: Nov 2002
    • Posts: 67,302
    #32

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    Leslie, it's just not possible to give absolute rules about phrasal verbs, because, as I have said, there is no general agreement about which combinations are phrasal verbs.. There never will be.

    We can't even agree (assuming we accept that 'take off' is a phrasal verb') on whether 'The plane took slowly off' is acceptable or not.
    Or whether something like an adverb constitutes separability in the way that an object does.

  3. jutfrank's Avatar
    VIP Member
    English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • England

    • Join Date: Mar 2014
    • Posts: 9,256
    #33

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Here's a summary, for Leslie1, of what I would attempt to demonstrate as far as any rules are concerned, just for the sake of argument. (I'm not sure how successful I'd be!)

    1. Some PVs are Transitive.
    2. Some PVs are Intransitive.
    3. All TPVs are separable by objects.
    (TPVs which seem inseparable are not true PVs, and should be reclassified.)
    4. All IPVs are inseparable by objects.
    5. All PVs are separable by adverbial phrases.


    My attempt at an argument would follow the lines that rules 3. and 5. are true in principle, not necessarily in practice. For example, I'd argue that although The plane took slowly off is neither natural nor does it have much sense, it is nevertheless possible in principle, in that it does not violate any syntactic rules and so remains intelligible.

    By the way, I'm confident that Piscean was not thinking of Derrida when he wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    ...your sentence above is as useful as "There are no living dead men".
    He was merely pointing out that this proposition is true by definition, or as Kant might have said, analytically true, hence uninteresting in the sense that it doesn't tell us anything about anything other than the terms it employs.

  4. VIP Member
    Retired English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • Europe
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Jul 2015
    • Posts: 15,469
    #34

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post

    By the way, I'm confident that Piscean was not thinking of Derrida .
    You are right. I have no idea how you guessed that. I am impressed.

  5. Moderator
    Interested in Language
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • American English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States

    • Join Date: Dec 2015
    • Posts: 15,126
    #35

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Write I'm not sure how successful I'll be.
    I am not a teacher.

  6. VIP Member
    Retired English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • Europe
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Jul 2015
    • Posts: 15,469
    #36

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Not following 'Here's a summary, for Leslie1, of what I would attempt to demonstrate as far as any rules are concerned, just for the sake of argument. '.

  7. Moderator
    Interested in Language
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • American English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States

    • Join Date: Dec 2015
    • Posts: 15,126
    #37

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    Not following 'Here's a summary, for Leslie1, of what I would attempt to demonstrate as far as any rules are concerned, just for the sake of argument. '.
    I didn't read that part. You're right, of course.
    I am not a teacher.

  8. jutfrank's Avatar
    VIP Member
    English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • England

    • Join Date: Mar 2014
    • Posts: 9,256
    #38

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    Not following 'Here's a summary, for Leslie1, of what I would attempt to demonstrate as far as any rules are concerned, just for the sake of argument. '.
    Notice my careful wording!

  9. Leslie1
    Guest
    #39

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    Leslie, it's just not possible to give absolute rules about phrasal verbs, because, as I have said, there is no general agreement about which combinations are phrasal verbs.. There never will be.

    We can't even agree (assuming we accept that 'take off' is a phrasal verb') on whether 'The plane took slowly off' is acceptable or not.

    Then this thread should be changed to have the following title: What is the exact definition of a phrasal verb?

  10. Leslie1
    Guest
    #40

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    According to this website, a phrasal verb is --
    Phrasal verbs are idiomatic expressions, combining verbs and prepositions to make new verbs whose meaning is often not obvious from the dictionary definitions of the individual words. They are widely used in both written and spoken English, and new ones are formed all the time as they are a flexible way of creating new terms.

    According to Piscean, "there is no general agreement about which combinations are phrasal verbs. There never will be."

    Why? Are phrasal verbs essentially contested concept, such as justice and equality are in political philosophy?

    Which aspect of phrasal verbs are essentially contested? The only aspect of the definition that looks essentially is the "idiomatic expression" aspect.

    But please help me understand this: "it's just not possible to give absolute rules about phrasal verbs, because, as I have said, there is no general agreement about which combinations are phrasal verbs. There never will be."

    But why? It's not true about many aspects of language. Many aspects of language there is agreement. Why can there never be agreement here?

Page 4 of 5 First 1 2 3 4 5 Last

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •