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    #41

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie1 View Post
    But please help me understand this: "it's just not possible to give absolute rules about phrasal verbs, because, as I have said, there is no general agreement about which combinations are phrasal verbs. There never will be."

    But why?
    There is no such thing in real life as a 'phrasal verb'. 'Phrasal verb' is simply a label that people attach to some combinations of a verb and preposition(s)/adverb(s)/particle(s) that in their opinion have a meaning that is not immediately transparent from the meanings of the constituent parts. This is not surprising when you consider that the constituent parts, especially the preposition/adverb/particle part rarely have one, and only one, unambiguous meaning.


    Many aspects of language there is agreement.
    There are very few aspects of English about which there is universal agreement.

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    #42

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    There are very few aspects of English about which there is universal agreement.
    There are, however, some where the disagreement is pretty much universal.

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    #43

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    There are, however, some where the disagreement is pretty much universal.
    I can't agree. Do you have evidence to support that statement?
    I am not a teacher.

  4. Leslie1
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    #44

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    There is no such thing in real life as a 'phrasal verb'. 'Phrasal verb' is simply a label that people attach to some combinations of a verb and preposition(s)/adverb(s)/particle(s) that in their opinion have a meaning that is not immediately transparent from the meanings of the constituent parts. This is not surprising when you consider that the constituent parts, especially the preposition/adverb/particle part rarely have one, and only one, unambiguous meaning.
    There are very few aspects of English about which there is universal agreement.

    Iím glad weíre making progress
    My question was: Which aspect of phrasal verbs are essentially contested? The only aspect of the definition that looks essentially is the "idiomatic expression" aspect.
    Your response: A phrasal verb is Ö some combinations of a verb and preposition(s)/adverb(s)/particle(s) that in their opinion have a meaning that is not immediately transparent from the meanings of the constituent parts.Ē
    Essentially your response is: a phrasal verb is an idiom (meaning that is not immediately transparent from the meanings of the constituent parts).
    So you are agreeing with, thatís good. My question was essentially is it the "idiomatic expression" aspect.
    You are saying yes, as the disagreement results as the meaning is not immediately transparent from the meanings of the constituent parts. Thatís basically an idiom.

    I have an idea: letís abstract from the mundane reality and proceed in the direction of hypotheticals.
    If we have agreement that ďget onĒ is some combination of a verb and preposition(s)/adverb(s)/particle(s) that that is not immediately transparent from the meanings of the constituent parts, then what rules follow from this hypothetical example?
    If you run through all the hypotheticals, then eventually you have a conclusion that bears on reality.
    Iíve seen this a thousand timeópeople obstruct for the sake of obstructing: you been to 100s of faculty meeting, why do that here? As Madison wrote in Federalist10, the ďlatent causes of faction are sown in the nature of manĒ; including having ďa zeal for a different opinion.Ē Kissinger allegedly quipped that academic politics is so vicious because the stakes are so low. I see echoes of Madison and Kissinger in our dear esteemed members.
    Rather than taking an obstructionist view, letís solve the problem. I propose (sort of) a paradigm shift in approach. Economists are often saying this: donít let the empirical reality get in the way of your model-building.
    Thatís for us: donít let the empirical reality get in the way of finding a rule. Who cares about the disagreement.
    Establish the logical conditions under which PV x is true, and determine a rule.

  5. jutfrank's Avatar
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    #45

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie1 View Post
    Establish the logical conditions under which PV x is true, and determine a rule.
    What logical conditions? How can a PV be said to be true?

    It's not clear what exactly you're trying to do here. Are you looking for a clearer definition or some kind of rule? What kind of rule? Why?

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    #46

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    There are verbs that are so clearly idiomatic that it would be perverse to suggest that they're not- you cannot get the meaning of give up smoking from the individual words, but there are cases where the idiomatic nature is a matter of opinion.

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    #47

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie1 View Post
    Your response: A phrasal verb is Ö some combinations of a verb and preposition(s)/adverb(s)/particle(s) that in their opinion have a meaning that is not immediately transparent from the meanings of the constituent parts.Ē
    You missed out the vital words "simply a label that people attach to"

    Essentially your response is: a phrasal verb is an idiom (meaning that is not immediately transparent from the meanings of the constituent parts).
    I did not say that.

    So you are agreeing
    I don't agree.

    people obstruct for the sake of obstructing ...
    I see echoes of Madison and Kissinger in our dear esteemed members ....
    Rather than taking an obstructionist view letís solve the problem ...
    If you consider presentation of opinion as obstruction, I don't think a discussion will get far.

    donít let the empirical reality get in the way of finding a rule
    I have not the slightest interest in coming up with a 'rule' that is not based on empirical reality.


    • Definition of empirical
    • 1: originating in or based on observation or experience empirical data
    • 2: relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory an empirical basis for the theory
    • 3: capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment empirical laws

      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical

  8. Leslie1
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    #48

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    Economists build models all the time that are not based on empirical data; we can do the same --
    So what I mean is: take all the logical possibilities of PVs and find some interesting rules

    Then later one compares it to empirical reality.

    Sorry you had to check the dictionary for the meaning of empirical.

  9. Leslie1
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    #49

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    My error, apologies, didn't mean to say "true."

    Looking for rules to explain the why some PV are sep an why PV are insep.

    There's one person in this thread who understands the stakes:

    Similar to what you have done above:

    1. Some PVs are Transitive.
    2. Some PVs are Intransitive.
    3. All TPVs are separable by objects.
    (TPVs which seem inseparable are not true PVs, and should be reclassified.)
    4. All IPVs are inseparable by objects.
    5. All PVs are separable by adverbial phrases.


    This is interesting: "TPVs which seem inseparable are not true PVs, and should be reclassified."
    I think this is part of the confusion.
    The field needs a reclassificatory project.

    We tried to get in the car. get in. TPV needs reclassification?
    We tried to get the letter in the envelope. TPV sep?

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    #50

    Re: Rule/Heuristic for Distinguishing Separable and Non-Separable Phrasal Verbs?

    I'm shutting the thread as it is generating more heat than light.

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