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    #41

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    It is important to know about books from which ideas are quoted so that we can assess the reliability of the information. A book about English grammar written by an internationally recognised authority is likely to be more reliable than one written by a non-native-speaking student trying to make some money.

    Detailed explanations of some of the ideas I summarise can be found in:

    Huddleston, Rodney (1984), An Introduction to the Grammar of English. Cambridge: CUP
    Huddleston, Rodney and Geoffrey Pullum (2002), The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. Cambridge: CUP
    Aarts, Bas (2011), Oxford Modern English Grammar. Oxford: OUP

    Briefer notes can be found in:

    McArthur, Tom (ed) (1992), The Oxford Companion to the English Language. Oxford, OUP.

    These books are unlikely to be of much use to people wishing to learn how to communicate effectively in English, but they are valuable to those who are interested in English grammar per se. The first one is invaluable for those wishing to know what terminology is used by many modern grammarians, and why there are now labels unfamiilar to people who may have last learnt about grammar at school some decades ago. It also explains why some of the traditional terminology is now used in a different way.

    That book itself is now over thirty years old, but many of the ideas mentioned in it are now widely accepted and taught - in the academic world at least.
    Hi,

    I managed to get a copy of all of the books. The first one: "Huddleston, Rodney (1984), An Introduction to the Grammar of English" is a great book. I was looking everywhere to learn about tree diagrams but gave up. This book on first glance seems to talk about the tree diagram in depth. I've not had a chance to read the entire book yet, but I can sense there is a lot I like about it. There's a part where it talks about ambiguity with the following sentence:

    Liz attacked the man with a knife

    It's show the ambiguity in the tree diagram. This is exactly what I want to learn, and it's the reason why I have asked similar questions in the forum. This is grammar heaven!

    The other books: "The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language" this book is huge. There are about 1830 odd pages. There's a lot of reading to do.

    The other books are equally as good. There's a good list of assortment here to be busy with.
    This is great! I really appreciate the recommendation itÂ’s exactly what I want to learn.

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    #42

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover_KE View Post
    We'll be the judges of what's important. You still haven't told us the author.
    Doesn't actually state author but I think it’s a publishing company of some sort: Glencoe Language Arts or Glencoe/McGraw-Hill.

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    #43

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartShape View Post
    I just finished up reading about possessive nouns.

    "Emma" is a possessive noun. For grammarians it's a genitive case because there's no ownership.

    Here in the sentence, Emma is functioning as an adjective modifying the noun class. To be technical, it's still a noun and adjectives can modify Emma because it's a noun type.

    That that now concludes my understanding, anyone disagree?

    By the way, in some of the material showing it as an adjective it's because it's acting as an adjective.
    I disagree.

    Emma's class.

    Here, "Emma's is a genitive noun functioning as a determiner.

    Emma's is not functioning as an adjective. You are confusing form and function. And it's not a modifier either, but a determiner. Please take that on board once and for all.
    Last edited by Rover_KE; 25-Apr-2018 at 09:51. Reason: fixing typo

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    #44

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMatthews View Post
    I disagree.

    Emma's class.

    Here, "Emma's is a genitive noun functioning as a determiner.

    Emma's is not functioning as an adjective. You are confusing form and function. And it's not a modifier either, but a determiner. Please take that on board once and for all.
    Ah. I can see why you have underline noun when mentioning genitive. I understand there can be different relationships when mentioning the genitive but in this case I am referring to Emma as a noun. The suffix -'s is a marker of genitive case in English and a noun modifying another noun.

    I don't disagree it being a determiner.

    Emma has all the hallmarks of an adjective in that it precedes a noun. For sentence diagramming sake, that's how it's interpreted. It's not wrong to say it's functioning as adjective so long as we understand its type is a noun and not an adjective. Is that wrong?

    Here's a question: why are some people using the word modifier before the noun even if it's not modifying then?

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    #45

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartShape View Post
    Here's a question: why are some people using the word modifier before the noun even if it's not modifying then?
    A lack of familiarity with correct terminology. They mean 'determiner'.

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    #46

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    A lack of familiarity with correct terminology. They mean 'determiner'.
    If Piscean a respected grammarian how come he says it’s a modifier?

    " No. Emma's is anoun phrase. It functions as a modifier of noun class. "

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    #47

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartShape View Post
    If Piscean a respected grammarian how come he says it’s a modifier?

    " No. Emma's is anoun phrase. It functions as a modifier of noun class. "
    Coming from teaching backgrounds, neither myself nor my esteemed fellow member Piscean is a grammarian, though we do have considerable practical knowledge of grammar usage, and a modicum of theoretical knowledge of contemporary grammar studies.

    I don't know about PaulMatthews, but I'm confident enough to say that for your purposes of analysing sentences, you would be very wise to listen to him.

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    #48

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    Coming from teaching backgrounds, neither myself nor my esteemed fellow member Piscean is a grammarian, though we do have considerable practical knowledge of grammar usage, and a modicum of theoretical knowledge of contemporary grammar studies.

    I don't know about PaulMatthews, but I'm confident enough to say that for your purposes of analysing sentences, you would be very wise to listen to him.
    What about this (it too say's it's a modifier):

    http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/gramm...eterminers.htm

    Articles, determiners, and quantifiers are those little words that precede and modify nouns:

    the teacher, a college, a bit of honey, that person, those people, whatever purpose, either way, your choice

    Sometimes these words will tell the reader or listener whether we're referring to a specific or general thing (the garage out back; A horse! A horse! My kingdom for a horse!); sometimes they tell how much or how many (lots of trees, several books, a great deal of confusion). The choice of the proper article or determiner to precede a noun or noun phrase is usually not a problem for writers who have grown up speaking English, nor is it a serious problem for non-native writers whose first language is a romance language such as Spanish. For other writers, though, this can be a considerable obstacle on the way to their mastery of English. In fact, some students from eastern European countries — where their native language has either no articles or an altogether different system of choosing articles and determiners — find that these "little words" can create problems long after every other aspect of English has been mastered.

    Determiners are said to "mark" nouns. That is to say, you know a determiner will be followed by a noun. Some categories of determiners are limited (there are only three articles, a handful of possessive pronouns, etc.), but the possessive nouns are as limitless as nouns themselves. This limited nature of most determiner categories, however, explains why determiners are grouped apart from adjectives even though both serve a modifying function. We can imagine that the language will never tire of inventing new adjectives; the determiners (except for those possessive nouns), on the other hand, are well established, and this class of words is not going to grow in number. These categories of determiners are as follows: the articles (an, a, the — see below; possessive nouns (Joe's, the priest's, my mother's); possessive pronouns, (his, your, their, whose, etc.); numbers (one, two, etc.); indefinite pronouns (few, more, each, every, either, all, both, some, any, etc.); and demonstrative pronouns. The demonstratives (this, that, these, those, such) are discussed in the section on Demonstrative Pronouns. Notice that the possessive nouns differ from the other determiners in that they, themselves, are often accompanied by other determiners: "my mother's rug," "the priests's collar," "a dog's life."

    This categorization of determiners is based on Understanding English Grammar by Martha Kolln. 4rth Edition. MacMillan Publishing Company: New York. 1994.

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    #49

    Re: object of preposition

    Quoted from: The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, author Rodney Huddleston, Geoffrey K. Pullum

    Genitives, such as Christ' in [41V], we take to be modifiers not determiners. They occur
    readily in names that are themselves functioning as modifier within a larger construction,
    as in a Christ's College don: this is a construction which accepts nominals but not full NPs
    in modifier position. Such genitives cannot normally contain a determiner -
    compare King's College, Women's College, etc.

    I think this quotes say it's a modifier too?

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    #50

    Re: object of preposition

    At the end of the day, it's a matter of defining terms. If you think that what determiners do can be acceptably described by the word modify, then you can call them modifiers. If you don't, you can't. Just be aware that not everybody agrees on definitions. (Least of all English teachers.)

    From what I gather, what you need to focus on is the structure of sentences, and how this bears on the meaning. You can use whatever terminology you like as long as you can understand the function of a word/phrase as it occurs in use.

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