Page 6 of 6 First ... 2 3 4 5 6
Results 51 to 60 of 60
  1. Member
    Student or Learner
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Feb 2018
    • Posts: 298
    #51

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    At the end of the day, it's a matter of defining terms. If you think that what determiners do can be acceptably described by the word modify, then you can call them modifiers. If you don't, you can't. Just be aware that not everybody agrees on definitions. (Least of all English teachers.)

    From what I gather, what you need to focus on is the structure of sentences, and how this bears on the meaning. You can use whatever terminology you like as long as you can understand the function of a word/phrase as it occurs in use.
    How are students supposed to learn if there are no formal agreement and understanding in grammar? Is there no accepted standards? Where do we draw the line? It doesn't matter what I think, I just want to learn the correct usage, and the accepted standard.

    Where do you stand in this, do you agree it modify nouns?

  2. jutfrank's Avatar
    VIP Member
    English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • England

    • Join Date: Mar 2014
    • Posts: 8,015
    #52

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartShape View Post
    How are students supposed to learn if there are no formal agreement and understanding in grammar? Is there no accepted standards? Where do we draw the line? It doesn't matter what I think, I just want to learn the correct usage, and the accepted standard.

    Where do you stand in this, do you agree it modify nouns?
    I understand that Emma's is clearly determining class. It's telling us which class. So it makes good sense to call it a determiner.

    I'm sympathetic to the idea that determiners are themselves a subclass of modifiers. That is, that all determiners can be considered to be 'modifying' their nouns. The way I'm using modify here is quite general—to mean something like 'giving definition to (or, in other words 'restricting the meaning of') the concept'. Put very simply, this means that a modifier tells us something about a concept, whether that concept be a noun, adjective or whatever. Modifiers give definition—a clearer picture to imagine, rather than a mere vague concept. Lewis Hamilton's bright red sports car creates a clearer mental picture than just car.

    But as I said, I'm not a grammarian. You should probably go with what the majority of contemporary grammarians consider standard. I'd suggest reading Huddleston and Pullum for this.
    Last edited by jutfrank; 26-Apr-2018 at 02:22.

  3. VIP Member
    Interested in Language
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • American English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States

    • Join Date: Dec 2015
    • Posts: 14,195
    #53

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartShape View Post
    How are students supposed to learn if there are no formal agreement and understanding in grammar? Is there no accepted standards?
    There is no official body that proclaims that one set of terms and definitions is correct with respect to English grammar. If you care deeply about how you describe sentences and their parts, you should study the books that have been recommended here and pick one as the reference you will rely on.
    I am not a teacher.

  4. Moderator
    Retired English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • England

    • Join Date: Jun 2010
    • Posts: 28,180
    #54

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartShape View Post
    How are students supposed to learn if there are no formal agreement and understanding in grammar? Is Are there no accepted standards?
    Without wishing to disrespect those of you with an interest in this thread or your knowledgable contributions so far made herein, I have moved it away from Ask a Teacher as it long ago ceased to be of interest to the vast majority of ESL students (and indeed of native speakers, too), who somehow manage to learn the language and communicate effectively without feeling the need to exercise their brains over such niceties of grammatical terminology.

    No offence.
    Last edited by Rover_KE; 26-Apr-2018 at 08:53.

  5. VIP Member
    Retired English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • Europe
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Jul 2015
    • Posts: 15,014
    #55

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartShape View Post
    If Piscean a respected grammarian how come he says it’s a modifier?
    Hardly a respected grammarian.

    My point in using the word 'modifier' was that I was using a word that named the function, not the word class.

  6. Member
    Student or Learner
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Feb 2018
    • Posts: 298
    #56

    Re: object of preposition

    This might be of interest. Googled own dictionary brings up the following meaning (image attached):


    1. a person or thing that determines or decides something.

    2. Grammar


    A modifying word that determines the kind of reference a noun or noun group has, for example a, the, every.


    I think the majority of us can conclude “determiner” is a modifier.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails determiner.jpg  

  7. VIP Member
    Retired English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • Europe
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Jul 2015
    • Posts: 15,014
    #57

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartShape View Post

    I think the majority of us can conclude “determiner” is a modifier.
    You need to accept that, as others have suggested, there is no universal agreement on the precise definitions of much terminology in grammar. As there are probably fewer than half a dozen of us following this thread now, the idea of a majority of us concluding that a determiner is a modifier does not mean much. If many people, including authoritatiative grammarians, were participating here, you probably would not get a majority to agree on this.

    It doesn't matter! When there is disagreement over the precise meaning of a term in any academic field, the discussion itself can be very illuminating.

  8. Member
    Student or Learner
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Feb 2018
    • Posts: 298
    #58

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    You need to accept that, as others have suggested, there is no universal agreement on the precise definitions of much terminology in grammar. As there are probably fewer than half a dozen of us following this thread now, the idea of a majority of us concluding that a determiner is a modifier does not mean much. If many people, including authoritatiative grammarians, were participating here, you probably would not get a majority to agree on this.

    It doesn't matter! When there is disagreement over the precise meaning of a term in any academic field, the discussion itself can be very illuminating.
    I accept that.

    By the way, I'm glad for your contribution in this thread because it made me comb through some of the materials I have misread in finer details. I managed to get the answer I was looking for at the end after taking on board what you wrote.

    I am now on the cusp to learning great things.

  9. Moderator
    Retired English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • England

    • Join Date: Jun 2010
    • Posts: 28,180
    #59

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartShape View Post

    I am now on the cusp of learning great things.
    `

  10. Member
    Student or Learner
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Feb 2018
    • Posts: 298
    #60

    Re: object of preposition

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover_KE View Post
    `
    I notice I always seem to have a problem with this. What’s the difference between “to” and “of”?

Page 6 of 6 First ... 2 3 4 5 6

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •