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magic dragon

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Jutfrank, what I'd like to know about is not "the object" as an abstracted concept, but rather about that as a generalized concept, meaning the same as objects.
What I'd like to know is whether "the noun" (in F "the object") can generalize the same plural nouns ("objects") whatever countable noun it is if context permits.

Of course I know "the object" in F is grammatical. I know from my teaching experience it's not a good use of English.
But I must tell my students why it's not so.

I said this in my previous reply:
-Abaka said: The specifies lion (as an abstraction of lions) as opposed to other entities--- It seems to me that he is saying the specification is caused by the abstraction of lions and the opposition of the lion to other entities. If so, I agree with abaka.-

"The object" in F is meant to be a generarized concept, but I cannot find anything opposed to "the object" in any upper class. In other words I cannot find any appropriate context. That made me judge "the object" in F as inappropriate.
What do you think of my reasoning?
 

jutfrank

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I still can't identify your question.

Are you asking whether the object = objects?

"The object" in F is meant to be a generarized concept, but I cannot find anything opposed to "the object" in any upper class. In other words I cannot find any appropriate context. That made me judge "the object" in F as inappropriate.
What do you think of my reasoning?

I don't understand any of this. If you meant The object as a generalized concept, why are you looking for an upper class? And why don't you know what it's in opposition to? You made up this sentence yourself, so how can you not know what it means?

I've given you in post #20 what could be a very appropriate context.

Sorry, I'm lost. Try one more time. Ask me a very clear and direct question, and I'll either answer it directly or tell you which part of the question doesn't make sense.
 
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magic dragon

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I still can't identify your question.
Are you asking whether the object = objects?

Yes, I am.

You said if you meant The object as a generalized concept, why are you looking for an upper class?
-I said in my previous reply:
I think it can be said that "the lion" is qualified for having "the", just because it's an abstracted (a generalized) concept, which is one and only entity. However, it's not that "the lion" as such is well used in any kind of sentence or discourse. Context, as you say, plays an important role, I think. For example, you rarely say, "The lion is a thing (or a creature)." (The upper class here is things, and the opposition seems unclear. --- However, you could say, "The lion is a wild animal (or a mammal)," as long as you prepare the suitable context. (Here the upper class is wild animals or mammals, and the opposition to them seems clear.)

--- I think "the lion is a thing" is bad because the opposition is unclear, that is: I can't find no appropriate context.
Looking for an upper class means (or is relevant to) looking for an appropriate context, I think.

You said: And why don't you know what it's in opposition to?
--- I just don't hit on what it stands as opposed to.

You said: You made up this sentence yourself, so how can you not know what it means?
-No, I saw 'Objects are in space" in some book (what book I don't remember), and I created F just by changing "objects" to "the object"

You said F is not a good use of English. But good or bad judgment is made by years of
experience of reading, hearing and speaking English. My students don't have enough experience of such kind. In Japan I, unlike native teachers, have to tell my students why it's good or bad in a reasonable way.

However, so much for this question. Maybe it's above my ability. I've talked too much. Sorry for troubling you so much. Thank you very much.
 

Tdol

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Looking for an upper class means (or is relevant to) looking for an appropriate context, I think.

You can overthink such things, and most contexts are concerned with the level of the focus rather than a higher level. If I am talking about a cute cat in a video on my phone, I am not really thinking about the feline family.
 

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Magic_Dragon

Looking at your postings aa a whole, not only in this thread, I feel that you are trying to apply concepts from formal logic and mathematical statistics (e.g. upper adjacent class) to help you with English. I regret to tell you that won't work. Language is not logic. Language in general and English in particular exist quite apart from and independent of logic. Rather than trying to force the rules of logic on the illogical and messy creature we call English, you will fare better with simple rote learning of vocabulary, grammar and idiomatic usage supplemented with a few mnemonics and rules of thumb.
 

magic dragon

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-Thank you probus. I totally agree with you. In fact several native speakers including teachers of English have pointed it out to me so far. I agreed with them each time because they are right.
However, I'm not a lover of a logical or mathematical thinking, because logic (and mathematics) seemed to me to impair something heartful or delicate in a language and in life as well. I used to be a lover of English and American literature, which I majored in in the university.
Before starting to teach English, I'm not so interested in English grammar: also I disliked language theories like Chomsky's or structuralists',

But my attitude changed after I became a teacher of English. As you know, the Japanese language is so far from the English language in many ways, particularly in an article system, which doesn't exist in a Japanese language system and too difficult for Japanese teachers let alone students.
Some teachers try to master articles and teach them to their students, but knowing an article system has something illogical in it and understanding it requires years of experience, not just linguistic experience but also cultural experience, end up giving up teaching articles. (Japanese students, except for few who are lucky enough to have years of experience of staying or studying in English speaking countries, don't have such experience. And they aren't under the condition that they cannot live on if they don't mater English.)
Only a few teachers teach articles. They don't provide a logical explanation and instead use the word "social convention", which is a convenient phrase for them. However, the students never master articles particularly in the case of an exophoric use. For them there are too many cases requiring rules of thumb, which apply to each individual case, and don't have high versatility.
As a result, most Japanese students have rarely been taught articles, and even if they are taught articles, they hardly understand. That's a shame, but it can't be helped.

I wondered I could come up with a breakthrough solution. Nothing, nothing as long as the teaching of articles definitely requires years of linguistic and cultural experience. To make the matters worse, the time allowed for teaching articles to the students is sadly small. But we Japanese teachers want our students to speak and write correct English.

One day, came to me an idea:
Native speakers make appropriate choices as to which article to take based on rules of thumb. Almost everyone makes an appropriate choice, but what on earth makes it possible? Probably they, when choosing articles by experience, share the identical psychological tendency. When each person's psychological tendency is the same, it should be thought, there is some extent of logic in it. What kind of logic then? Only God knows. However, it just seems to me to be as reasonable as possible.

Now when I teach the reason for "the" being added to, say, "meter", as in "The cloth is sold by the meter in that shop.", I provide 4 explanations:
One is that the standard "meter" must be only one meter recognized by people.
Another is that generally a unit of measurement is the only socially accepted one.
Still another is that the meter is chosen by the shopkeeper, not the yard or not the inch.
(The meter is in contrast with other units of measurement.)
Still another is that the meter is the generalized concept of meters, which is only one thing.

Which of the four is correct? Only God knows. Also it is possible there isn't a correct idea among the 4. I tell my students that nobody can judge which one is correct, because nobody knows which idea native speakers had in the days "the meter" was first used, and tell them there might be influences from foreign languages (say, French), and from that on there might be historic changes. And so I let my students choose whichever they like, and tell them the point is whether they come to choose appropriate articles, regardless of its trueness of the chosen idea.

As for me, I try to provide plural ideas my students can refer to in their choice of articles. And I tell them I cannot provide a correct idea but can provide a reasonable and valid one. Also I tell particularly to the students wishing to be an English teacher to remember what they are taught by me now isn't a definite truth but rather just a reasonable idea.
(Of course, in th case of anaphora use and cataphora one, I teach in a logical way.)

As for my questions to you native teachers, I'd like you to make a judgement as to which explanation is reasonable, not which is correct. I just use the word "correct" for convenience. The words "Am I right?" mean in my mind "Is my explanation reasonable enough for my students to understand?" or "Is it useful for their choice of articles?"

If I should be an English teacher in English speaking countries, I would probably take (much) the same way as you do. As it is, I'm an English teacher in a country of which the language system is the farthest from your countries'
Anyway so much for the argument. I talked too much. Thank you for your sincere advice.
 
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magic dragon

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--most contexts are concerned with the level of the focus rather than a higher level. If I am talking about a cute cat in a video on my phone, I am not really thinking about the feline family.
I think so ,too. Thank you.
 

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Again, I think that simply going with the flow, accepting things that may seem weird or illogical and doing what speakers do may be better than trying to drill down for rules that Chomsky hasn't managed to dredge up. Most of what you think are choices are simply patterns we picked up without questioning when we were infants. We just learned that if we say this, people will think it's right. We didn't ask why. Grammar is often like Nike sportswear- just do it. :up:
 

magic dragon

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Thank you Tdol. Again I agree with you. I think you are right.
 

emsr2d2

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I think so (no comma here) too. Thank you.

Thank you, Tdol. Again, I agree with you. I think you are right.

There was no need to write either of those posts. You can express your thanks with the "Thank" button and your agreement with the "Like" button. Any opportunity to keep threads shorter should be taken.
 

jutfrank

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Some teachers try to master articles and teach them to their students, but knowing an article system has something illogical in it and understanding it requires years of experience

There's nothing illogical about the English article system.

Native speakers make appropriate choices as to which article to take based on rules of thumb.

Absolutely not true. Learners may use rules of thumb, but native-speakers do not.

Almost everyone makes an appropriate choice, but what on earth makes it possible? Probably they, when choosing articles by experience, share the identical psychological tendency. When each person's psychological tendency is the same, it should be thought, there is some extent of logic in it. What kind of logic then? Only God knows.

You're on the right lines here but of course it's not only God who knows!

Now when I teach the reason for "the" being added to, say, "meter", as in "The cloth is sold by the meter in that shop.", I provide 4 explanations:
One is that the standard "meter" must be only one meter recognized by people.
Another is that generally a unit of measurement is the only socially accepted one.
Still another is that the meter is chosen by the shopkeeper, not the yard or not the inch.
(The meter is in contrast with other units of measurement.)
Still another is that the meter is the generalized concept of meters, which is only one thing.

Which of the four is correct? Only God knows.

Hold on—

1) Don't assume that only one of these four is correct.
2) Don't assume that any of these is correct, in fact.
3) Don't assume that only God understands use of English. Remember that there are different levels of understanding. It may be only God who understands things perfectly, but I can tell you that there is the possibility of some level of understanding by simple English teachers like us.

I understand that you're having difficulty getting to grips with the use of articles, but I have to say that based on our previous exchanges over the past few months that you actually have a pretty good sense of it, in my judgement.

Have you not thought of trying to get hold of any decent scholarly books/articles about the article system?
 

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However, there are many common exceptions to the basic guidelines; it's no wonder to me that learners sometimes despair. My only consolation for them is that misuse of articles rarely impedes communication.
My cousin Vladimir never uses them, nor does he bother with the verb to be. This doesn't impede him from expressing complex thoughts like "English, uh, uh, wery bad language!"
 

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Well, to be fair to your (imaginary?) cousin, the third word of that sentence is actually the word he needed, even if he said it inadvertently.
 

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Well, to be fair to your (imaginary?) cousin, the third word of that sentence is actually the word he needed, even if he said it inadvertently.

He isn't the least bit imaginary! He can be a little hard to believe at times, though.

He escaped the siege of Leningrad with his mother at age four, but not before enduring a year of starvation whose effects are taking a terrible toll in his last years.
 

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He isn't the least bit imaginary! He can be a little hard to believe at times, though.

He escaped the siege of Leningrad with his mother at age four, but not before enduring a year of starvation whose effects are taking a terrible toll in his last years.

I think that is not well known in this country. (It certainly is remembered in Russia. Some even resorted to cannibalism).
 
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magic dragon

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There's nothing illogical about the English article system.
Absolutely not true.

---I'll withdraw the word "illogical". I meant by it that comprehensive reasoning mostly ends up allowing exceptions, and in some cases the choice of articles depends on the speaker's personal preference and mood (say, in the choice of an indefinite article or a zero article before a noun with an adjective).

of course it's not only God who knows!

-- Several natives have given me advice. They said the reason for a definite article being added to something in the case exophora reference is needed shouldn't be sought for, because, say, the meter, the east, the past, the morning, the winter ---etc are ideas commonly accepted long long ago, and said seeking for the reason is impossible. One of them said, if I continue seeking, it would make me go mad. "Only God who knows" is the words one of them used.
I agreed with their opinion that seeking for the reason is impossible. However, I think being as reasonable as possible is at least worth doing.

What I talked about is getting big, though I just wanted to make a comment on probus's opinion.
Thanks for a nice opinion and advice.
 
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magic dragon

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However, there are many common exceptions to the basic guidelines; it's no wonder to me that learners sometimes despair. My only consolation for them is that misuse of articles rarely impedes communication.

--I think the misuse of articles sometimes puts a strain to native hearers, not to say impedes communication. Thanks for your comment.
 

emsr2d2

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Most native English speakers are patient and forgiving when it comes to errors made by non-native speakers when they're casually conversing. I have to agree with you that article errors can sometimes impede understanding, as shown in the third exchange below.

Vladmir: Do you have dog?
Sarah (who understands the question even without an article): Yes. I have a very cute Labrador puppy.

Vladimir: Do you have a dog?
Sarah (who understands this grammatically correct question): Yes. I have a very cute Labrador puppy.

Vladimir: Do you have the dog?
Sarah: What dog? Which dog? Am I mean to have a dog? I've got a very cute Labrador puppy at home but what dog are you talking about?
 

magic dragon

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Thank you emsr2d2 for a nice example.
I sometimes have a conversation like this with one of my students:

magic dragon: Kenji (assumed name) do you have a girlfriend now?
Kenji: Yes, I do. She's very charming and cute.
magic dragon: So how about your friend Koji (assumed name)?
Kenji: Oh, he, too, has the girlfriend.

I, after making sure that the 3 persons aren't in a love triangle, tell Kenji to use "one" or "a girlfriend" instead of "the girlfriend".
A bit strainful to me. I know that Japanese learners of English including students tend to use "the" too often, so avoiding misunderstanding is rather easy, but some native teachers in Japan, having no knowledge of Japanese learners' tendency like above, might misunderstand.
 

magic dragon

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--- By the way I haven't yet got the answer to my question from anyone: Why don't you use "the object" instead of "objects" in the sentence, "Objects are in space in time". (I added "and time".)

Not yet either to my question: Why don't you use "the creature" instead of "creatures" in sentence A: "Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists."

A few responders said A is right, and a sentence using "the creature" is not good. Their responses aren't the answer to my question. What would they answer if asked why is A right or good? If they would answer it's because A is right or good, it's a circular reasoning. Illogical!

As for me I suggested the reason for "the creature" being bad lies in the fact that "creatures" don't have what they are opposed to (or don't have an upper class except God).
Just as the sentence "The object is in space and time." is bad because the word "object" doesn't have what it's opposed to.
(In C, of course, the lion definitely has what it's opposed to.)

Incidentally except for the case in which the capitalized Creator is used as opposed to the Creator as in 'Must the Creature" worship the Creator?".
 
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