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  1. Newbie
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    #11

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Yes, thank you, everything is correct on my profile, and, that is true, I made a typo.

    What I meant to write was --

    jutfrank wrote that "yes, that's right. The stressed word is the 'focus' word. That means that it is the most important word in the sentence, because it presents the listener with new information."

    To which I meant to reply-- yes what you are saying is self-evident, you are simply telling me the definition, which doesn't answer my question, because I know the definition (I know that "The stressed word is the 'focus' word. That means that it is the most important word in the sentence, because it presents the listener with new information.")

    Here is the problem –
    1. Verbs and nouns are focus words; 2. The last focus word is most heavily stressed; 3. The problem in this sentence -- I had my hair (NOUN) cut (VERB) – is that "hair" is more heavily stressed than "cut." This contravenes the principle that “the last focus word is most heavily stressed" (Mojsin’s principle) according to which "cut" should be stressed.
    That is the question.

  2. Tarheel's Avatar
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    #12

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    That's not a question. Do you have a question?
    Not a professional teacher

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    #13

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    I had my hair done at the new salon on Park Road.

    Thought Group 1: I had my hair done
    Thought Group 2: at the new salon
    Thought Group 3: on Park Road

    Levels of stress --

    unstressed font size 1 -- pronouns. prepositions, articles:I my at the on

    stressed font size 2 -- verbs, nouns, adjectives excluding words most heavily stressed -- had, done, new, Road

    most heavily stressed font size 3 -- hair, salon, Park






    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    Which word would you stress in the following:

    I had my hair done at the new salon in Park Road.
    Last edited by rompercabeza; 04-Dec-2019 at 21:39.

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    #14

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    -- meant to post above as a reply,

    Last edited by rompercabeza; 04-Dec-2019 at 22:13.

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    #15

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Yes, these are good examples of contrastive stress. Contrastive stress is important to use when necessary, but most sentences are not do not involve contrastive stress. My question concerns word stress within causative verb structures independent of the use of contrastive stress.

    Quote Originally Posted by emsr2d2 View Post
    Welcome to the forum.



    I had it cut.
    I had it cut.
    I had it cut.

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    #16

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    In this sentence using a causative verb structure, why is "hair" generally most heavily stressed as opposed to "done"?

    I
    had my hair done.

    This is a question because "Hair" and "done" are both focus/content words, so unless there is an intervening rule that explains this anomaly, one would expect that the last focus/content word is generally most heavily stressed. Is there a rule that explains this?

    For example, one could ask, Why is the preposition "up" most heavily stressed in this sentence -- I tuned up my car.
    The answer would be that the particles of two-word phrasal verbs are most heavily stressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel View Post
    That's not a question. Do you have a question?

  7. jutfrank's Avatar
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    #17

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by rompercabeza View Post
    According to Mojsin, (2016), "As a general rule, the last content word of a phrase gets the most stress" (p. 98).
    Yes. That is rather general, though.

    Hence, there has been no explanation, as far as I can see, of why, in "I had my HAIR done" and "I got my CAR fixed, "hair" and "car." which are content not function words because they are nouns -- and most strikingly they are the final content words in these phrases that should according to Mojsin's general rule get the most stress. But they don't. (p. 98).
    They do get the most stress.

    Usually the last verb would be stressed the most in a sentence.
    I think so, yes. Usually. Not in your sentences, however.

    Why stress"hair" more than done and "car" more than "fixed"?


    I've already answered that in post #3.

    Quote Originally Posted by rompercabeza View Post
    Yes, thank you, that to me is a matter of self-evidence; I am glad we are on the same page of, ... the world, which has many pages, yet is not the 'focus' word here is an another focus word that should take precedence according to Mojsin (2016)?
    I don't follow what you're saying here.

    Quote Originally Posted by rompercabeza View Post

    What I meant to write was --

    jutfrank wrote that "yes, that's right. The stressed word is the 'focus' word. That means that it is the most important word in the sentence, because it presents the listener with new information."

    To which I meant to reply-- yes what you are saying is self-evident,
    No, it isn't.

    you are simply telling me the definition
    No, that's not the case. I was giving you an explanation.

    which doesn't answer my question, because I know the definition (I know that "The stressed word is the 'focus' word. That means that it is the most important word in the sentence, because it presents the listener with new information.")
    What I'm saying is really quite simple—generally speaking, we stress the most important content word, whether it's the very last word in the utterance or not.

    Here is the problem –
    1. Verbs and nouns are focus words; 2. The last focus word is most heavily stressed; 3. The problem in this sentence -- I had my hair (NOUN) cut (VERB) – is that "hair" is more heavily stressed than "cut." This contravenes the principle that “the last focus word is most heavily stressed" (Mojsin’s principle) according to which "cut" should be stressed.
    That is the question.
    Okay, I see what you mean now. You must understand that what you have as rule 2 here is from being always true. Mojsin is oversimplifying the rule. It is more accurate to say that we stress the most important word, which is often (but not always) the final content word. Sometimes we even stress function words. It is almost impossible, in my opinion, to provide anything other than very general rules for this since which word counts as the focus word in any utterance depends on meaning.

    Your example sentences are very good evidence of an exceptions to Mojsin's rule, right?

    "hair" is more heavily stressed than "cut." This contravenes the principle that (Mojsin’s principle) according to which "cut" should be stressed.
    A quick pointer: the part “the last focus word is most heavily stressed" is not a principle but a rule. Those are two quite different things. What Mojsin says is really just an observation. It has no explanatory power—it just tells you what you can expect. My explanation about stressing the word that presents new informational content can, however, be considered a principle.
    Last edited by jutfrank; 04-Dec-2019 at 22:20.

  8. jutfrank's Avatar
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    #18

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by rompercabeza View Post
    For example, one could ask, Why is the preposition "up" most heavily stressed in this sentence -- I tuned up my car.
    The answer would be that the particles of two-word phrasal verbs are most heavily stressed.
    This is mistaken. Why do you think that up is more heavily stressed than car? (It isn't.)

  9. Newbie
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    #19

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    It is more accurate to say that we stress the most important word, which is often (but not always) the final content word.
    Yes, I agree, "we stress the most important word, which is often (but not always) the final content word."
    I think the explanation regarding what we do when we do not stress the final word is that we are using contrastive stress.
    My question regarding the causative verb structure pertains to those cases when we are not using contrastive stress.


    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    Your example sentences are very good evidence of an exceptions to Mojsin's rule, right?
    Yes, the example sentences are evidence of an exceptions to Mojsin's rule.
    Last edited by rompercabeza; 04-Dec-2019 at 22:35.

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    #20

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    This is mistaken. Why do you think that up is more heavily stressed than car? (It isn't.)
    Yes, I agree, car is stressed more heavily than up.

    I should have written -- I tuned up my car.

    I invoked phrasal verbs for an example of a verb, tune, stressed less heavily than a preposition, up.

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