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  1. jutfrank's Avatar
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    #21

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by rompercabeza View Post
    Yes, I agree, "we stress the most important word, which is often (but not always) the final content word."
    I think the explanation regarding what we do when we do not stress the final word is that we are using contrastive stress.
    My question regarding the causative verb structure pertains to those cases when we are not using contrastive stress.
    Yes, that's right. The stress in your examples is not contrastive.

    I should have written -- I tuned up my car.

    I invoked phrasal verbs for an example of a verb, tune, stressed less heavily than a preposition, up.
    No, that's still not right. The secondary stress is on tuned and the primary stress is on car.

    I tuned up my car.




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    #22

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post

    No, that's still not right. The secondary stress is on tuned and the primary stress is on car.

    I tuned up my car.
    According to Mojsin (2016), “In phrasal verbs, the stress is on the last word” (p. 93) regarding two-word phrasal verbs.

    One example she gives is “He picked up the box,” which she writes as "He picked up the box” (she doesn't treat the status of "box" here, but consistent with her rules it would be "He picked up the box”).

    She then compares phrasal verbs with "noun forms of phrasal verbs" (p. 94):
    A.
    Phrasal Verbs (stress on the second word)
    The car was tuned up.

    B. Nouns (stress on the first word)
    My car needed a tune up.

    Based on Mojsin's rules, one would say "I tuned up my car."

    For her, 1) it would be consistent with the rule that the last focus word in a sentence is most heavily stressed that the primary stress is on car; and2) consistent with the rule “In phrasal verbs, the stress is on the last word,” the secondary stress is on up.

    Based on Mojsin's rules, "I tuned up my car" would be an example of contrastive stress.

    One example of contrastive stress -- What did you say you did, you blew up the car? No, I tuned up the car.
    Last edited by rompercabeza; 05-Dec-2019 at 01:10.

  3. jutfrank's Avatar
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    #23

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by rompercabeza View Post
    According to Mojsin (2016), “In phrasal verbs, the stress is on the last word” (p. 93) regarding two-word phrasal verbs.

    One example she gives is “He picked up the box,” which she writes as "He picked up the box” (she doesn't treat the status of "box" here, but consistent with her rules it would be "He picked up the box”).
    No, that is not correct. It seems that Mojsin (whoever she is) has misunderstood the stress patterns of phrasal verbs. Although it is true (and a notably interesting feature of phrasal verbs) that the particle is stressed, this only applies noticeably when the particle is the final word of an utterance.

    Look, if you say only pick up, it sounds like this:

    pick up

    and if you utter a phrase like this, with the particle in the final position, it sounds like this:

    Do you want me to pick you up?

    You can hear here that the stem verb pick and the particle have more or less similar stress.

    But when the particle is followed by other words (especially verb objects), this is no longer the case:

    I picked up the box.

    (Note: I'm not claiming that the particle could not be stressed in the sentence above because one could pronounce it like that. However, that would not be the most neutral way.)

    She then compares phrasal verbs with "noun forms of phrasal verbs" (p. 94):
    A.
    Phrasal Verbs (stress on the second word)
    The car was tuned up.

    B. Nouns (stress on the first word)
    My car needed a tune up.
    Yes, that's right but possibly not for the reasons she gives. As I explained above, the particle is stressed in the first sentence above because it is in the final position (which intransitive phrasal verbs often are).

    Based on Mojsin's rules, one would say "I tuned up my car."
    Then don't follow her rules. Who is she anyway? Obviously not a phonologist.

    Are you really a native speaker, rompercabeza? If so, just listen to the way you yourself say these phrases. If not, please change your profile information.
    Last edited by jutfrank; 05-Dec-2019 at 01:38.

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    #24

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    One place she can be found -- https://www.youtube.com/user/AccurateEnglish

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    #25

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    Who is she anyway?
    Another place she can be found https://www.accurateenglish.com/

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    #26

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    I present a brief discussion of two-word separable phrasal verbs that permits me to answer my initial question regarding causative verbs.

    According to Mojsin (2016), “In phrasal verbs, the stress is on the last word” (p. 93) regarding two-word phrasal verbs.

    One example she gives is, “He picked up the box.”

    I believe that her rule can be modified (independent of modifications based on contrastive stress) as follows:

    If an object that is a common or proper noun and not a pronoun is placed between the verb and particle in a two-word separable phrasal verb, this object is more heavily stressed than the verb or particle.

    I picked the box up. (stress roughly equal for picked and up)
    I tuned the car up. (stress roughly equal for tuned and up)


    Proposal of New Rule for Phrasal Verbs
    Hence, I propose a new rule based on this observation:
    In phrasal verbs, the primary stress is on the object in two-word phrasal verbs when the object that is a common or proper noun and not a pronoun is between the verb and particle. (PV1)

    If it is the case that objects are generally stressed more heavily than verbs or particles (independent of contrastive stress), then the structure of these types of phrasal-verb sentences is similar to causative-verb sentences.

    I picked the box up (PV1)
    I had my hair done. (CV1)

    Proposal of New Rule for Causative Verbs
    Hence, I propose a new rule based on this observation:
    In causative verbs, the primary stress is on the object when the object is a common or proper noun and not a pronoun in two-word causative-verb structures when the object is between the two verbs. (CV1)
    Last edited by rompercabeza; 05-Dec-2019 at 05:00.

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    #27

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    pick up
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    and if you utter a phrase like this, with the particle in the final position, it sounds like this:

    Do you want me to pick you up?

    You can hear here that the stem verb pick and the particle have more or less similar stress.
    Or perhaps nothing has changed? It is still pick up. In other words, I cannot hear that the stem verb pick and the particle now have more or less similar stress. Nothing has changed. Up continues to have more stress. That is plausible or impossible?

    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    But when the particle is followed by other words (especially verb objects), this is no longer the case:

    I picked up the box.

    (Note: I'm not claiming that the particle could not be stressed in the sentence above because one could pronounce it like that. However, that would not be the most neutral way.)
    Can you point me to a source that discusses this? A book or article?


    Quote Originally Posted by jutfrank View Post
    Yes, that's right but possibly not for the reasons she gives. As I explained above, the particle is stressed in the first sentence above because it is in the final position (which intransitive phrasal verbs often are).
    You can add a clauses to the end and nothing changes as follows:
    A.
    Phrasal Verbs (stress on the second word)
    The car was tuned up and then we drove to the beach. stress on tuned < up< beach
    B. Nouns (stress on the first word)
    My car needed a tune up before I drove to the beach. stress on beach > tune > up

    So its being in the final position is not the decisive factor.

  8. jutfrank's Avatar
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    #28

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by rompercabeza View Post
    Or perhaps nothing has changed? It is still pick up. In other words, I cannot hear that the stem verb pick and the particle now have more or less similar stress. Nothing has changed. Up continues to have more stress. That is plausible or impossible?
    Well, yes, I agree that up continues to have more stress. I was trying to show that in context, the content word want and the stem pick are now also stressed, creating three 'beats' to the phrase.

    Can you point me to a source that discusses this? A book or article?
    I had a quick look but didn't see anything. I suspect that there is very little, if any, scholarly writing on this specific matter since it is so hard to give anything other than very general rules.


    You can add a clauses to the end and nothing changes as follows:
    A.
    Phrasal Verbs (stress on the second word)
    The car was tuned up and then we drove to the beach. stress on tuned < up< beach
    B. Nouns (stress on the first word)
    My car needed a tune up before I drove to the beach. stress on beach > tune > up

    So its being in the final position is not the decisive factor.
    Okay, I didn't explain well before. I meant 'final position' of the clause. Basically, when the phrasal verb is not followed by a complement, as with intransitive PVs. What you've written above is correct.

    Can I ask—what is your goal here? Are you attempting to write a text or is this just for your personal interest?

  9. Tarheel's Avatar
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    #29

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Can you point me to a source that discusses this? A book or article?

    Why? Do you want to learn how to speak your own language?
    Not a professional teacher

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    #30

    Re: Word stress for certain types of causative verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel View Post
    Agnes: I had my hair done at Betty's Beauty Shop.
    Brenda; I had my hair done at the new salon in Park Road.

    Exactly- stress can move about.

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