Page 3 of 3 First 1 2 3
Results 21 to 27 of 27
  1. #21
    IsaacZ's Avatar
    IsaacZ is offline Newbie
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Student or Learner
      • Native Language:
      • Chinese
      • Home Country:
      • China
      • Current Location:
      • China
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    18

    Re: He's telling us there's a whale out there for us. - Is "out there" an adverbial?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMatthews View Post
    Adjunct is another term for adverbial.
    What about these ones?

    So much writing out there in the world and who wants to read it?
    Like any other person out there, I fall into habits, good and bad.
    Just about every database out there has tools for doing this.
    Nobody out there can get more from that group of players.
    This seems to be one of the oldest cliches out there, but in my experience it works.

    Please help analyse their functions. Thanks.

  2. #22
    Phaedrus's Avatar
    Phaedrus is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,262

    Re: He's telling us there's a whale out there for us. - Is "out there" an adverbial?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMatthews View Post
    [1] There is a shark out there.
    [2] I saw a shark out there.


    In both cases "out there" is a locative adjunct.

    In neither case is "a shark out there" a noun phrase, a constituent. In [1] for example, the noun phase complement of "be" is "a shark".
    In [1], "out there" can alternatively be analyzed as the complement of "is," assuming "There is a shark out there" derives from "A shark is out there."

    On that analysis, the underlying constituent of which "a shark" and "out there" are components is the clause "A shark is out there."

    In [2], "a shark out there" can be analyzed as a small clause complement of the perceptual verb "saw." On that analysis, it is a constituent.

    In neither of these alternative analyses is "out there" an adjunct or adverbial.

  3. #23
    PaulMatthews is offline Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Great Britain
      • Current Location:
      • Great Britain
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    486

    Re: He's telling us there's a whale out there for us. - Is "out there" an adverbial?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    In [1], "out there" can alternatively be analyzed as the complement of "is," assuming "There is a shark out there" derives from "A shark is out there."

    On that analysis, the underlying constituent of which "a shark" and "out there" are components is the clause "A shark is out there."

    In [2], "a shark out there" can be analyzed as a small clause complement of the perceptual verb "saw." On that analysis, it is a constituent.

    In neither of these alternative analyses is "out there" an adjunct or adverbial.

    I disagree.

    There is a shark out there.

    I wouldn't say that "a shark out there" is a constituent.

    The NP complement of "be" is just "a shark", and "out there" is a locative adjunct.

    In examples like "I consider Ed quite incompetent", the underlined element is sometimes called a 'small clause' (or a verbless clause), but that's not the case in the OP's example, since locatives like "out there" are not assimilated to the predicatives.
    Last edited by PaulMatthews; 16-May-2020 at 12:58.

  4. #24
    PaulMatthews is offline Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Great Britain
      • Current Location:
      • Great Britain
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    486

    Re: He's telling us there's a whale out there for us. - Is "out there" an adverbial?

    There is a shark out there.

    Further to my previous post, I would ask what you mean when you say: "There is a shark out there" derives from "A shark is out there".

    Surely the speaker does not go through some silent process in their mind of thinking "A shark is out there" and then converts that to the spoken "There is a shark out there".

    What evidence could you have for such a claim?


    I saw a shark out there.

    Again, I would ask what basis there is for saying that "a shark out there" is a clause. It looks to me as though you're assuming a markedly different theoretical framework to mine.

  5. #25
    Phaedrus's Avatar
    Phaedrus is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,262

    Re: He's telling us there's a whale out there for us. - Is "out there" an adverbial?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMatthews View Post
    There is a shark out there.

    Further to my previous post, I would ask what you mean when you say: "There is a shark out there" derives from "A shark is out there".

    Surely the speaker does not go through some silent process in their mind of thinking "A shark is out there" and then converts that to the spoken "There is a shark out there".
    I mean "derives from" in the same sense that "Is there a shark out there?" may be said to derive from the string "there is a shark out there."

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMatthews View Post
    What evidence could you have for such a claim?
    Subject-verb agreement is a good source of evidence. Dummy-"there" (or existential-"there") subjects do not determine subject-verb agreement. Compare:

    (a1) There is a shark out there.
    (a2) *There are a shark out there.

    (b1) There are sharks out there.
    (b2) *There is sharks out there.

    Those sentences illustrate that dummy "there" can be followed by a verb in the singular or in the plural. The choice between the singular or the plural is constrained by the noun phrase that comes after the verb.

    Therefore that noun phrase is the underlying subject. Sentences with dummy-"there" subjects derive from their dummy-less counterparts. In transformational-generative frameworks, the relevant operation has for at least half a century been known as There-Insertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMatthews View Post
    I saw a shark out there.

    Again, I would ask what basis there is for saying that "a shark out there" is a clause. It looks to me as though you're assuming a markedly different theoretical framework to mine.
    I think reflexive pronouns offer a good enough basis. As you know, reflexive pronouns in their normal, non-emphatic use require co-reference with the subject of their most local clause. Consider, then, the following sentences:

    (c1) I saw a shark out there by itself.
    (c2) ?? I saw a shark out there by it.

    (d1) I saw a shark out there by myself.
    (d2) ?? I saw a shark out there by me.

    It is obvious that (c1), with the reflexive pronoun "itself," is needed to indicate that what the speaker saw was the shark out there by itself, i.e., all alone. In sentence (c2), "it" does not refer to the shark, but to some contextually unspecified thing or animal next to which the shark was when the speaker saw it.

    In (d1), the reflexive pronoun ("myself") refers back to the subject of the main clause. "I saw the shark out there by myself" indicates that the speaker saw the shark with his unaided eye. In sentence (d2), by contrast, "by me" has a different significance, one too weird for me to want to paraphrase.
    Last edited by Phaedrus; 20-May-2020 at 23:50.

  6. #26
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • Japan
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    73,016

    Re: He's telling us there's a whale out there for us. - Is "out there" an adverbial?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Why do you say that it never caught on? It has been around for over 150 years.
    It did not catch on in the UK.

  7. #27
    Phaedrus's Avatar
    Phaedrus is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,262

    Re: He's telling us there's a whale out there for us. - Is "out there" an adverbial?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMatthews View Post
    I saw a shark out there.

    Again, I would ask what basis there is for saying that "a shark out there" is a clause.
    I'd like to add another argument, to augment the case from reflexives. "Out there" can be parsed in 3 ways in "I saw a shark out there."

    (1) "Out there" may modify "saw," specifying where the speaker was when he saw the shark; the speaker was out there.
    (2) "Out there" may modify "a shark," indicating that the speaker saw one shark that was out there (there was at least one other shark).
    (3) "Out there" may relate to "a shark" without modifying it, indicating that what the speaker saw was a shark's being out there.

    It is only on interpretation (3) -- which I think is the most likely interpretation of the sentence -- that "a shark out there" is clause-like.

Page 3 of 3 First 1 2 3

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •