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    #11

    Re: south=noon, north=midnight (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by SoothingDave View Post
    "Directly above" was a poor choice of words. The sun is at its highest point of the day at noon (more or less, give or take your exact spot in relation to the time zone).
    In relation to the latitude, you mean? The time zone is related to the longitude and won't change the angle the sun lights the Earth. I mean the sun at noon will be less "overhead" in the northern latitudes, but will be the same in all time zones of the same latitude.
    Last edited by GeneD; 21-Apr-2020 at 14:25.
    If it's not too much trouble to you, could you please correct any errors I might have made in this post?

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    #12

    Re: south=noon, north=midnight (?)

    I've looked up the words we are discussing in an etymology dictionary, and it turns out the directions in English connected with the sun too.
    East is from Proto-Germanic *aust- "east," literally "toward the sunrise".
    West
    is probably from PIE (Proto-Indo-European?) *wes-, reduced form of *wes-pero- "evening, night" (source also of Greek hesperos, Latin vesper "evening, west...).
    South is perhaps from Proto-Germanic *sunthaz, perhaps literally "sun-side". Sun-side seems to be connected to the noon indirectly, because the sun points directly at the south at noon. Again perhaps...
    North might be ultimately from PIE *ner- (1) "left," also "below" (source also of Sanskrit narakah "hell," Greek neretos "deeper, lower down," enerthen "from beneath," Oscan-Umbrian nertrak "left"), as north is to the left when one faces the rising sun. The same notion apparently underlies Old Irish tuath "left; northern;" Arabic shamal "left hand; north.

    And Collee's mentioning Latin reminded me about the Latin word "meridianus" which means "of midday, of noon, southerly, to the south". So there is a word in English (though borrowed) that connects notions south and noon - meridian. It's not exactly what I was trying to find, but half a loaf is better than no bread.
    If it's not too much trouble to you, could you please correct any errors I might have made in this post?

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    #13

    Re: south=noon, north=midnight (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneD View Post
    And Collee's mentioning Latin reminded me about the Latin word "meridianus" which means "of midday, of noon, southerly, to the south". So there is a word in English (though borrowed) that connects notions south and noon - meridian. It's not exactly what I was trying to find, but half a loaf is better than no bread.
    The only problem with that is that there is no connection in English between meridian and south.
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    #14

    Re: south=noon, north=midnight (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneD View Post
    I thought you meant that you could say "heading sunset". Like in Polish where the west is zachód (sunset) and the east
    wschód (sunrise).

    No, I was not saying they were synomyms. (See #7.)

    In the previous post, I explained that inside the polar circle the sun is seen at night in summer and the sun is in the north at midnight. Why are you saying there is no sense in naming the north so "no matter what"?

    Other languages can call things whatever they want. But we don't call it that in English. In English it does't make sense. So I said so.


    I've been to the Kola Peninsula and seen the midnight sun, and I can tell you there is nothing exotic about the usage of "midnight" in the sense of "north" when you see it with your own eyes. Or did you mean that it makes no sense in English?

    You're asking me to repeat myself. No matter how many times you ask, it makes no sense in English. In English, midnight is the hour between 11 p.m. and 1 a.m. Midnight does not mean north in English. Not in conversation. Not in folk lore. Not in scripture. Nowhere.

    Exotic? Exotic has nothing to do with it. It's just not English!



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    #15

    Re: south=noon, north=midnight (?)

    Or did you mean that it makes no sense in English?
    Did you read this sentence in the post you quoted? You could have just said 'yes'; there wasn't any need to repeat anything.
    Last edited by GeneD; 22-Apr-2020 at 12:52. Reason: Corrected a mistake.
    If it's not too much trouble to you, could you please correct any errors I might have made in this post?

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    #16

    Re: south=noon, north=midnight (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneD View Post
    but half a loaf is better than no bread.
    It is, however, a half loaf that no English speaker has any idea of. I do know something about the names behind the days of the week, but nothing about the south being noon.

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    #17

    Re: south=noon, north=midnight (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneD View Post
    In relation to the latitude, you mean? The time zone is related to the longitude and won't change the angle the sun lights the Earth. I mean the sun at noon will be less "overhead" in the northern latitudes, but will be the same in all time zones of the same latitude.
    The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. In between there is a path the sun takes. At some point it is at its highest. That point varies with longitude.

    "Local solar noon" varies with one's position east-to-west. It's why cities had different times before the railroads standardized.

    https://earthsky.org/earth/its-summer-whats-noon-to-you

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    #18

    Re: south=noon, north=midnight (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by SoothingDave View Post
    The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. In between there is a path the sun takes. At some point it is at its highest. That point varies with longitude.
    I don't quite understand what point exactly are you talking about. If you want to say that noon will be in Mexico and Mumbai at different time on your watch, then yes, I agree. If you mean that the sun in Mexico and Saint Petersburg at their noons will be at the same angle to those who live in those cities, then I disagree, of course.

    I think we just look at the thing we are discussing from different angles. I understand the point you made in post #3. You compared the approximate situation of the sun at noon with a map, where the north is up. My point was different. I was talking about the ability to see the midnight sun. You will see it neither in Mexico nor Mumbai, right? But in Murmansk, which is inside the arctic circle, you will see it surely. It depends on the latitude, not longitude, whether you can or can't see the sun at midnight and with its help know where the north is.

    Do we understand each other?
    If it's not too much trouble to you, could you please correct any errors I might have made in this post?

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    #19

    Re: south=noon, north=midnight (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    It is, however, a half loaf that no English speaker has any idea of. I do know something about the names behind the days of the week, but nothing about the south being noon.
    I learned about the association in Romance languages in this thread. I'm grateful for the knowledge, too, because I'll no longer struggle to remember whether méridionale is north or south in French.
    I am not a teacher.

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    #20

    Re: south=noon, north=midnight (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    It is, however, a half loaf that no English speaker has any idea of.
    Except those who write etymology dictionaries (and who are mostly the only readers of what they wrote) and this crazy Russian on UsingEnglish?
    If it's not too much trouble to you, could you please correct any errors I might have made in this post?

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