[Grammar] You can do worse than ...

[raymondaliasapollyon]

I see. No, they are not freely interchangeable.

I reckon only those whose dialects use "can do worse than V," or those who have access to such speakers, could make that assessment.
And it would be validated only if we could produce a scenario where "could do worse than V" and "can do worse than V" are not interchangeable, when both are used to make suggestions.

I don't quite understand the question. Imitation? There's little/no point in analysing these structures out of the context of use.

Is "can do better than V" used to make a suggestion?

 

[jutfrank]

I reckon only those whose dialects use "can do worse than V," or those who have access to such speakers, could make that assessment.

I doubt it's dialectic. What makes you think it might be? And what do you mean by 'access to such speakers'?

And it would be validated only if we could produce a scenario where "could do worse than V" and "can do worse than V" are not interchangeable, when both are used to make suggestions.

What would be validated? My statement that they're not interchangeable? I don't think we're on the same page now. Haven't we already done that? What I'm saying is that they're not interchangeable because they have a different meaning, even if they have the same use.

Is "can do better than V" used to make a suggestion?

Well, not easily, but it's not out of the question in principle, I suppose. Can you think how that might be? The only way I can think of using it is as in Charlie Bernstein's example in post #14.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

What would be validated? My statement that they're not interchangeable? I don't think we're on the same page now. Haven't we already done that? What I'm saying is that they're not interchangeable because they have a different meaning, even if they have the same use.

Would you determine the qualities of a dialect or idiolect by investigating people who don't speak that dialect or idiolect? I wouldn't. The issue in hand may be idioletic or dialectic, as there are speakers who don't use "can do worse than V" in the relevant sense at all . If we can find a live person who uses "can do worse than V" or who has the opportunity to consult speakers who use the expression , we can decide whether it is used in the same set of scenarios where other speakers would use "could do worse than V."

If there is a scenario where only one form can be used, then the two forms are not interchangeable. But the premise is we need to find the aforementioned dialects or idiolects. I wouldn't validate the claim by referring to judgments of people who only use "could do worse than V." The latter's idiolects or dialects are different from those who do use "can do worse than V," and for this reason have little use in the investigation.

Well, not easily, but it's not out of the question in principle, I suppose. Can you think how that might be? The only way I can think of using it is as in Charlie Bernstein's example in post #14.

If John had a first date with Sarah that didn't go well and we think Sarah would not make a suitable partner for him, could we say to him, "You can do better than marry Sarah"? Is it natural in the dialects or idiolects of those who don't use "can do worse than V"?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

I reckon only those whose dialects use "can do worse than V," . . . could make that assessment. . . .

But neither "can do better" nor "could do better" is from anyone's dialect. The phrases are used in conversation throughout the US, and American English is not a dialect. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that other countries use both, as well.

Is "can do better than V" used to make a suggestion?

No. It's used to state an opinion.

You're puzzling over an extremely minor point. Which one you use might depend on context. But no one would be gravely misled if you used one instead of the other.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . If John had a first date with Sarah that didn't go well and we think Sarah would not make a suitable partner for him, could we say to him, "You can do better than marry Sarah"? Is it natural in the dialects or idiolects of those who don't use "can do worse than V"?

If the first date didn't go well, I doubt anyone would be talking with John about marrying Sarah.

But again, dialects and idiolects don't matter here.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

PS - Just for the fun of it, here's a Jamaican using can:

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

If the first date didn't go well, I doubt anyone would be talking with John about marrying Sarah.

But again, dialects and idiolects don't matter here.

What if Sarah has some desirable qualities that make John want to marry her, despite the dissatisfactory first date?
How do you define dialect and idiolect?

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

But neither "can do better" nor "could do better" is from anyone's dialect. The phrases are used in conversation throughout the US, and American English is not a dialect. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that other countries use both, as well.

American English is indeed a dialect, or rather a group of dialects. (There is the term "standard dialect," by the way.) I've met Americans who say they wouldn't use "can do worse than V."

No. It's used to state an opinion.

Stating an opinion is not incompatible with making a suggestion.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

American English is indeed a dialect,

I think of it as a language.

or rather a group of dialects.

Yes, it is.

(There is the term "standard dialect," by the way.) I've met Americans who say they wouldn't use "can do worse than V."

No doubt! Lots of Americans won't (and wouldn't) say a lot of things.

Stating an opinion is not incompatible with making a suggestion.

Opinions and suggestions often accompany each other. "You can do better than to marry Sarah" is an opinion. "So come meet my friend Lisa" is a suggestion.

You may also feel that opinions sometimes imply suggestions. Yes, they do.

Which idea are you grappling with?:

A: The choice of "can" vesus "could" depends on context.
B: The choice depends on general versus specific.​

Or are you simply saying this?:

C: "Can" is always wrong.​

I might be able to share some examples that illustrate A, but I don't have anything useful to say about B (I'm not qualified) or C (I simply disagree).

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

I think of it as a language.

But it's not a separate language from, say, British English. That makes it a (national) dialect, itself with many subdialects.
A language is a dialect with an army and navy, so they say.

Google provides results like "dialects such as American English" from world-class linguists from the US, such as Richard Kayne.

Which idea are you grappling with?:

A: The choice of "can" vesus "could" depends on context.
B: The choice depends on general versus specific.​

I am contemplating how "can do worse than V" differs from "could do worse than V." The differences between "can" and "could" are well established, but when they are couched in " ___ do worse than V" (in the relevant sense), things get murky. The meaning of an expression is not always the sum of its parts.

Only speakers who use "can do worse than V", or who can consult speakers that do in the first place, can verify whether "can do worse than V" is limited to describing general possibility. Such a requirement is necessary for the study of any dialect- or idiolect-specific phenomenon. For example, I could provide an account of how I think a particular expression is used in the Shandong variety of Mandarin, based on the meanings of its components in the standard variety. But such an account could not be taken as reliable, because I don't speak that dialect or have the opportunity to consult those who speak it.



​

Or are you simply saying this?:

C: "Can" is always wrong.​

I might be able to share some examples that illustrate A, but I don't have anything useful to say about B (I'm not qualified) or C (I simply disagree).

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . Only speakers who use "can do worse than V". . . can verify whether "can do worse than V" is limited to describing general possibility. . . .

As I said above, I can't help you there. I use both. What that has to do with general possibility I'll leave to people who think about such things.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

As I said above, I can't help you there. I use both. What that has to do with general possibility I'll leave to people who think about such things.

Is there a scenario where you'd use one but not the other?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Is there a scenario where you'd use one but not the other?

I can't think of anything that speaks to your question about "limiting to a general possibility." Let's see if someone here who knows more about grammar can help you.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

But you are obviously qualified to share insight on this issue, since you speak a dialect or idiolect that employs "You can do worse than V."

 

[jutfrank]

But you are obviously qualified to share insight on this issue, since you speak a dialect or idiolect that employs "You can do worse than V."

What makes you think this has anything to do with dialect or idiolect?

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

What makes you think this has anything to do with dialect or idiolect?

If a person uses both "You can do worse than V" and "You could do worse than V," while another uses only "You could do worse than V," what can the difference be attributed to other than idiolectal/dialectal difference?

 

[jutfrank]

The most obvious answer is semantic difference.

But if you mean to compare the two forms as used in identical ways, then there are still several possibilities. It could be that an error was made, for instance.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Lexico-semantic differences in expressions could be dialectal or idiolectal, as could syntactic, morphological, etc. differences.