Is it correct? vs Is that correct?

[Alexey86]

Sorry, I can't help but notice a contradiction in your explanation. On the one hand, you argue that "It's true" doesn't work as a response to "To fall asleep is hard for him" due to a lack of coherence. On the other hand, you're okay with "You love money and power more than you love me"."It's true..." For some reason, in the latter case you allow the speaker "to decide to focus on the fact,...or the truth condition, rather than the utterance as an object." Why are you not okay with the former, then? Suppose the responding person decided to focus on the truth condition. Why is this inappropriate?

Robertson is referring to the propositional content only, not to any previous utterance.

And you don't see any problems with that because the reference 'target' (an utterance as such or its content) is up to the speaker, right? Then again, why do you see problems with the 'sleep' example? Why can't we just leave it up to the speaker what to refer to, given that such an approach works well for the 'Robertson' and the 'you love money more than me' examples?

No, they don't. That's the whole point of the example.

How does this differ from my 'teacher-student' context?

 

[GoesStation]

How does this differ from my 'teacher-student' context?

The video uses very basic English to teach nouns to small children. "This" might be more appropriate, but it would be harder to pronounce with the right rhythm and harder to understand.

Watching the video, my heart went out to the poor unfortunates who had to record the audio.

 

[Alexey86]

The video uses very basic English to teach nouns to small children.

'Basic' doesn't mean 'incorrect', does it?

"This" might be more appropriate

This is confusing, GS. 'That' is the only appropriate choice in the 'UFO' example. But in this case 'this' is just more appropriate. 'It' is not the best choice, but it still works, right? Why is that?

 

[GoesStation]

'Basic' doesn't mean 'incorrect', does it?

No, although in this case I might argue that the writer has overdone it. "What's this?" is the correct and natural phrase.

This is confusing, GS. 'That' is the only appropriate choice in the 'UFO' example. But in this case 'this' is just more appropriate. 'It' is not the best choice, but it still works, right? Why is that?[/COLOR]

The unidentified thing in the sky is far away, so "this" isn't possible. The bouncing ball image is right under the text, so "this" is natural.

"It" really doesn't work well. The video will eventually make it just a little harder for the kids who watch it to master the use of this, that and it.

 

[jutfrank]

Sorry, I can't help but notice a contradiction in your explanation. On the one hand, you argue that "It's true" doesn't work as a response to "To fall asleep is hard for him" due to a lack of coherence. On the other hand, you're okay with "You love money and power more than you love me"."It's true..." For some reason, in the latter case you allow the speaker "to decide to focus on the fact,...or the truth condition, rather than the utterance as an object." Why are you not okay with the former, then?

Excuse me, but that's not a contradiction. It's just that I'm apparently not explaining clearly enough for you.

Suppose the responding person decided to focus on the truth condition. Why is this inappropriate?

It contravenes the rules of conversation. I can't answer that in less than a thousand words. You really want to go into the details of conversation analysis?

And you don't see any problems with that because the reference 'target' (an utterance as such or its content) is up to the speaker, right?

Essentially, yes. Speakers can say what they want. That's what I mean by criticising your rule-based approach. The approach to take must be a psychological one.

Then again, why do you see problems with the 'sleep' example? Why can't we just leave it up to the speaker what to refer to, given that such an approach works well for the 'Robertson' and the 'you love money more than me' examples?

What's the 'sleep' example?

How does this differ from my 'teacher-student' context?

It doesn't differ, but it is not an example of ordinary language. It's designed to help very young children with articulating very basic sentences. You can ignore it for the purposes of this discussion. You would not say What is it? to anyone other than a one-year-old baby. This is not a question asking what something is—it's a teaching tool designed to teach babies something about the target language.

I'm growing impatient now. You're making me work too hard. Can we please focus on just one point at a time? And if you ask me about something we've discussed several posts ago, please repost the relevant section so I don't have to read the whole thread over and over.

 

[jutfrank]

'Basic' doesn't mean 'incorrect', does it?

Yes!

Call it incorrect, or wrong, or no good, or inappropriate, or whatever you like.

 

[Alexey86]

What's the 'sleep' example?

Sorry, I meant ''To fall asleep is hard for him."

I'm growing impatient now. You're making me work too hard.​

You're right. I'm sorry for overloading you with work. Are you still interested in the discussion? If not, I understand.

Can we please focus on just one point at a time?​

Okay, let's focus on what I called 'contradiction', if you haven't run out of patience yet.

We have two pieces of dialogue:

1) "To fall asleep is hard for him." "It's true."
2) "You love money and power more than you love me"."It's true," I said. "And I'm sorry it's true."

If I understood you correctly, all three pronouns are possible in the latter, and it's totally up to the responding person (his/her reference target) what to choose. But 'it' doesn't work in the former. Why is the content/truth condition reference is appropriate in (2) but not in (1)?

It contravenes the rules of conversation. I can't answer that in less than a thousand words. You really want to go into the details of conversation analysis?

Is this necessary to explain the difference between (1) and (2) above? Or maybe you can recommend some books or papers providing exhaustive explanation of the difference in usage between the pronouns under consideration.

 

[GoesStation]

You will gradually fill in any gaps in your intuitive understanding of the use of it, this, and that if you read incessantly. Your time spent discussing analyses of these uses is time that might be better applied in such reading.

You will also gain insight that may help you explain the subject should you find yourself having to teach it.

 

[Alexey86]

Believe me, I read. But reading itself isn't enough for further improvement in my comprehension of English. Watching thousands of paintings won't make you an art expert. You need to thoroughly analyze them for that purpose. After all, I just enjoy communicating with you all. Not to mention, it helps me improve my writing skills.

 

[jutfrank]

Are you still interested in the discussion? If not, I understand.

Yes. Sorry for my impatient tone earlier. Remember to give me just one question at a time.

Okay, let's focus on what I called 'contradiction', if you haven't run out of patience yet.

We have two pieces of dialogue:

1) "To fall asleep is hard for him." "It's true."
2) "You love money and power more than you love me"."It's true," I said. "And I'm sorry it's true."

If I understood you correctly, all three pronouns are possible in the latter, and it's totally up to the responding person (his/her reference target) what to choose. But 'it' doesn't work in the former. Why is the content/truth condition reference is appropriate in (2) but not in (1)?

Okay, yes, that is a good question to ask. Thank you for laying the sentences in question out again clearly like that. It really helps a lot.

1) Well, you wrote this example yourself so I'm completely not comfortable trying to analyse it. My approach is to look at authentic use, and try to understand why the speaker spoke as he did. The problem with this example is that it's both highly artificial, and from a non-native speaker. I'll remind you that you agreed I could disregard any examples that would get in the way of explanation. So I'm going to invoke my right to do that. :-D I think you should just ignore my comment that "it doesn't work". I didn't mean to say that it couldn't work, or that there were any 'rules' that prevent it from working, other than general rules regarding the conventions of conversation.

2) I didn't mean to say that all three pronouns are possible. I'm not really sure what you mean by 'possible'. How could they not be possible? Again, it seems you have in mind an idea that there are some mysterious rules that I'm not telling you. Forget about looking for rules and just ask why the speaker spoke as he did. This is a good example to analyse, because although it's not authentic, it's natural, and it represents authentic use very well.

 

[Alexey86]

Yes. Sorry for my impatient tone earlier.

It's totally understandable.

Remember to give me just one question at a time.

It's hard to forget (Please correct me if 'This is/that's hard to forget' is a better choice.).

Well, you wrote this example yourself so I'm completely not comfortable trying to analyse it.

Then, let's focus on the second example: A: "You love money and power more than you love me". B: "It's true," I said. "And I'm sorry it's true."

Imagine that you're B. What could be your personal reasons (the more, the better) for choosing different reference targets and, as a result, different pronouns? Take your time and feel free to fantasize. After you answer, I'll try to apply your reasons to some examples I've found through Ludwig. I would be more than glad to see other member's reasons too.

P.S. In case you missed what I said to Piscean earlier, I'll repeat: in all examples I've given you so far we would use the same pronoun in Russian which can be translated into English either as 'it' or 'this'. As you can understand, this feature of Russian doesn't make the comprehension of English pronouns easier for me.

 

[GoesStation]

A: "You love money and power more than you love me". B: "It's true," I said. "And I'm sorry it's true."

Imagine that you're B . What could be your personal reasons (the more, the better) for choosing different reference targets and, as a result, different pronouns?

As written, B is thinking of A's speech as a general statement. B would have used "that" if he'd wanted to re-emphasize what A just said. You can think of A's statement as a shorter version of "It's true that I love money and power more than I love you."

With "that", B would be thinking "The thing you just said is true."


Apologies if I've just repeated something that's already been thoroughly discussed in this thread.

 

[Alexey86]

As written, B is thinking of A's speech as a general statement. B would have used "that" if he'd wanted to re-emphasize what A just said.

I'd like to show you some examples of using 'it' referring to the preceding statement, and I have a couple of questions:
1) Can your explanation above be applied to them?
2) Would 'this/that' sound okay to you in them?

Maybe I'm wrong, but something tells me that 'this/that' wouldn't work in (c) even if the speaker was very eager to re-emphasize his previous statement. The choice of pronoun there in contrast to, say, (a) is not free and not just up to the speaker's way of thinking. There is some restriction on choosing 'this/that' in (c). Do you agree?


a) "... Jackson, however, does not see it that way. I think they are trying to size us up," he said." It makes sense for them. They want to catch us short". ...
(The New York Times)

b) "... Apple's announcement included no major partnerships and big publishers like Time Inc., Hearst and Condé Nast were muted or silent in their responses. It makes sense in a way. Mindful of the power of precedent when it comes to control over pricing— the music business is a most vivid object lesson — publishers are in no big hurry to hold hands with the folks from Cupertino. " (The New Your Times)

c) “Many kids of colour who when they were playing superheroes with their friends, their friends wouldn’t let them be Batman or Superman because they don’t look like those heroes but they could be Spider-Man because anyone could be under that mask,” Morales co-creator and comic book writer Brian Bendis told the New York Daily News. “But now it’s true. It’s meant a great deal to a great many people.”
(Independent)

d) When you talk to people after the crisis, either everyone took leadership or no one did. When someone becomes the leader and it went well,
everyone says they were the leader. And it’s true. I think it’s true to some extent. “I was the leader until a certain time,
after which someone else was, and after that…”
(https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13753-015-0044-7)

 

[GoesStation]

I'd like to show you some examples of using 'it' referring to the preceding statement, and I have a couple of questions:
1) Can your explanation above be applied to them?
2) Would 'this/that' sound okay to you in them?

Maybe I'm wrong, but something tells me that 'this/that' wouldn't work in (c) even if the speaker was very eager to re-emphasize his previous statement. The choice of pronoun there in contrast to, say, (a) is not free and not just up to the speaker's way of thinking. There is some restriction on choosing 'this/that' in (c). Do you agree?


a) "... Jackson, however, does not see it that way. I think they are trying to size us up," he said." It makes sense for them. They want to catch us short". ...
(The New York Times)

b) "... Apple's announcement included no major partnerships and big publishers like Time Inc., Hearst and Condé Nast were muted or silent in their responses. It makes sense in a way. Mindful of the power of precedent when it comes to control over pricing— the music business is a most vivid object lesson — publishers are in no big hurry to hold hands with the folks from Cupertino. " (The New Your Times)

c) “Many kids of colour who when they were playing superheroes with their friends, their friends wouldn’t let them be Batman or Superman because they don’t look like those heroes but they could be Spider-Man because anyone could be under that mask,” Morales co-creator and comic book writer Brian Bendis told the New York Daily News. “But now it’s true. It’s meant a great deal to a great many people.”
(Independent)

d) When you talk to people after the crisis, either everyone took leadership or no one did. When someone becomes the leader and it went well,
everyone says they were the leader. And it’s true. I think it’s true to some extent. “I was the leader until a certain time,
after which someone else was, and after that…”

I think you're on the right track. A isn't a good contrasting example for C, though, because in A, the it in "It makes sense" is reiterating whatever "it" is that Jackson doesn't see the same way. "This" is possible in B, and "that" in D.

 

[Alexey86]

I think you're on the right track. A isn't a good contrasting example for C, though, because in A, the it in "It makes sense" is reiterating whatever "it" is that Jackson doesn't see the same way.

This is how I see the reference points here:

"... Jackson, however, does not see it that way. I think they are trying to size us up," he said." It makes sense for them. They want to catch us short". ...

To me, 'it' is clearly referring back to the red part. What makes sense? -> "Trying to size us up".

"This" is possible in B, and "that" in D.

Maybe you have some insights as to why neither 'this' nor 'that' works in (c). All examples have a similar basic structure: a statement + a pronoun referring back to the whole statement. What's the source of the restriction I mentioned above, then? Maybe 'now' and 'but' somehow makes both demonstrative pronouns inadequate. Will 'this' be possible in (b) if I change it a bit and add 'now'/'but':

Apple's announcement included no major partnerships and big publishers like Time Inc., Hearst and Condé Nast were muted or silent in their responses, puzzling me then. Now, this/it makes sense to me. Mindful of the power of precedent when it comes to control over pricing— the music business is a most vivid object lesson — publishers are in no big hurry to hold hands with the folks from Cupertino.

Apple's announcement included no major partnerships, and big publishers like Time Inc., Hearst and Condé Nast were muted or silent in their responses, puzzling many observers. But this/it makes sense to me. Mindful of the power of precedent when it comes to control over pricing— the music business is a most vivid object lesson — publishers are in no big hurry to hold hands with the folks from Cupertino.

 

[Alexey86]

Maybe somebody has something to say about the role of 'but/now' or any other reasons prohibiting using 'this' in (c)?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

I would be glad to see GS's or other members' responses. If Swan's example is natural, does it differ from mine regarding the choice of pronoun?

And again, I've used 'it' in my question ('does it differ') instead of 'this/that', though they both would fit GS's explanation pointing at 'Swan's example'. Is it just me, or does anybody also agree that 'it' is a better choice here?

Okay, here's another member's response:

Everything useful that can be said has been said. This is such a fine point of usage that hashing it out further probably won't help.* It would be better to step back, listen to English speakers for a few more years, and get a feel for whatever nuances there are.

----------

*Similarly, why did I say "won't" instead of "wouldn't"? I don't know. It simply seems right. Some native speakers might go the other way. I certainly wouldn't (wouldn't) tell them they're wrong.

 

[Alexey86]

It would be better to step back, listen to English speakers for a few more years, and get a feel for whatever nuances there are.

Please, don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your response. But I've said before that my educational needs can't be met just by feeling what works and what doesn't. I'm seeking explanations based on your (natives') understanding (not only feeling) of English grammar and usage. I would be glad if you would share with me your take on the subject being discussed in this thread.

 

[Alexey86]

Even today, I would guess that over 95% of native speakers could not tell you why they used one of the it/this/that trio in most of the sentences you have asked about.

That's why I came to this forum, a place for people interested in English grammar and usage. I hope you all belong to the remaining 5%.

If there were clear rules about how these words are used, one of us would have told you by now. A couple of very patient members have tried to find helpful answers for you, but they can't find absolute answers - they don't exist.

I'm not seeking absolute rules or answers. I'm asking for your personal understanding.

 

[GoesStation]

I am not sure that I do understand this. I certainly don't understand it well enough to be able to give responses that you would find satisfactory.

I've enjoyed some bits of this discussion, but I agree that you're unlikely ever to find an infallible explanation. If I remember right, the discussion was provoked by the desire to be able to explain these choices to learners. It has pretty convincingly demonstrated what can and can't be readily explained.