Is it correct? vs Is that correct?

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Alexey86

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Hello! In my previous thread I wrote: "Down the straightaway = at the far side (back) of the straightaway. Is it correct?"

GoesStation corrected the question to "Is
that correct?" with the following explanation: "This and that point at something — in this case, text that's nearby or at least a little further away. It has no sense of directionality. When you ask whether "it's" correct, the reader wonders "Is what correct? Some random idea?" When you specify "this", I know that you're asking about something nearby."

I thought 'it' could also refer to a previous sentence/utterance/idea/thought. Swan says (Practical English Usage, Fourth Edition, unit 145):

"This, that and it can all be used to refer back to things or situations that have just been talked or written about. It does not give any special emphasis.
So she decided to paint her house pink. It upset the neighbours a bit.
This and that are more emphatic; they 'shine a light', so to speak, on the things or situations, suggesting 'an interesting new fact has been mentioned'.
So she decided to paint her house pink. This/That really upset the neighbours, as you can imagine.
...
It
is used only to refer to things which are 'in focus' - which have already been talked about. This is preferred when we 'bring things into focus' before anything has been said about them. Compare:
I enjoyed 'Vampires' Picnic'. It/This is a film for all the family...
'Vampires' Picnic': This is a film for all the family...(NOT It is a film for all the family...)


Doesn't my original example fit this explanation? I mean 'it' is just less emphatic than 'that' but not wrong.
 
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Tarheel

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"Is it correct?" seems perfectly fine to me.
 

GoesStation

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"Is it correct?" seems perfectly fine to me.
It is, in many contexts. The post where I corrected it to "that" was not exactly what Alexey quoted. The formatting was different, with the text the question was about further away on the page. I felt that this put that text a little out of reach to use "it".

This is a very subtle distinction. "It" wasn't wrong; it just felt less natural to me than "this".
 

Alexey86

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The formatting was different, with the text the question was about further away on the page. I felt that this put that text a little out of reach to use "it".

Would you clarify this, please? You said, 'This' and 'that' point at something — in this case, text that's nearby or at least a little further away." Doesn't it mean that 'it' is more appropriate when referential text is further away, as it is in my case?
 

GoesStation

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Would you clarify this, please? You said, 'This' and 'that' point at something — in this case, text that's nearby or at least a little further away." Doesn't it mean that 'it' is more appropriate when referential text is further away, as it is in my case?
You probably meant to ask Does this mean …? I phrased my explanation badly. I meant to establish this distinction:
this: nearby
that: further away (at least a little).


I qualified "that" because it covers any distance that isn't very close: it works equally well with that book (the one on the shelf in front of me) or that mountain (the one on the horizon, fifty miles away).

I'm having trouble finding a way to guide you as to when "it" works. It's a tricky question, that one. :-(
 

Alexey86

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You probably meant to ask Does this mean …?
I used doesn't in the sense I used it in the OP (Doesn't my example fit this (Swan's) explanation = If it doesn't, then I'm surprised.) because I thought there was a contradiction in your explanation I didn't expect to see.

I used it because it referred to the preceding quotation. I thought it wasn't the case when "text a little out of reach to use ''it''. There was no distance between them at all.

I'm having trouble finding a way to guide you as to when "it" works. It's a tricky question, that one. :-(

I understand. It's really difficult to explain subtle differences in word usage. Thank you!
 

GoesStation

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I used doesn't in the sense I used it in the OP (Doesn't my example fit this (Swan's) explanation = If it doesn't, then I'm surprised.) because I thought there was a contradiction in your explanation I didn't expect to see.
Okay, in that case, you used doesn't perfectly. The question would be more naturally worded Doesn't this mean …? Using "this" says "Doesn't the thing that I have just mentioned mean (what I'm about to say)?" When you wrote "it", you lost the instruction that "this" provides to the reader: look at something very close to you.
 

Alexey86

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When you wrote "it", you lost the instruction that "this" provides to the reader: look at something very close to you.

What's the difference between Swan's example and mine with respect to the usage of 'it':

So she decided to paint her house pink. It upset the neighbours a bit.

You said, 'This' and 'that' point at something — in this case, text that's nearby or at least a little further away." Doesn't it mean that 'it' is more appropriate when referential text is further away, as it is in my case?

 

Alexey86

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I would be glad to see GS's or other members' responses. If Swan's example is natural, does it differ from mine regarding the choice of pronoun?

And again, I've used 'it' in my question ('does it differ') instead of 'this/that', though they both would fit GS's explanation pointing at 'Swan's example'. Is it just me, or does anybody also agree that 'it' is a better choice here?
 

GoesStation

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What's the difference between Swan's example and mine with respect to the usage of 'it':

So she decided to paint her house pink. It upset the neighbours a bit.

You said, 'This' and 'that' point at something — in this case, text that's nearby or at least a little further away." Doesn't [STRIKE]it[/STRIKE] this mean that 'it' is more appropriate when referential text is further away, as it is in my case?
When you want to "point" at something, you should use this or that. I'd like to be able to elucidate why "it" works in Swan's example (and it does), but I can't. It just does -- and only "it" works in the sentence you're reading now. Swan's sentence would work fine with "this", too.

I would be glad to see GS's or other members' responses. If Swan's example is natural, does it differ from mine regarding the choice of pronoun?

And again, I've used 'it' in my question ('does it differ') instead of 'this/that', though they both would fit GS's explanation pointing at 'Swan's example'. Is it just me, or does anybody also agree that 'it' is a better choice here?
I replaced "it" with "this" in your sentence. "It" didn't work at all there; it's again just mentioning something without telling the reader you're talking about the thing you just said​. When you say something and then immediately refer to it, you will rarely go wrong if you use "this".

Jutfrank, can you chime in and shed some light on this fraught subject? I'm especially interested in why "it" works fine in Swan's sentence about the pink house, as it clearly does.
 

Alexey86

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I replaced "it" with "this" in your sentence.

But you didn't replace 'it' in my last question: ''If Swan's example is natural, does it differ from mine regarding the choice of pronoun? 'It' works here, doesn't it?

Jutfrank, can you chime in and shed some light on this fraught subject? I'm especially interested in why "it" works fine in Swan's sentence about the pink house, as it clearly does.

Jutfrank, you just can't be an absent observer this time.:)
 

GoesStation

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But you didn't replace 'it' in my last question: ''If Swan's example is natural, does it differ from mine regarding the choice of pronoun? 'It' works here, doesn't it?
Yes, and "this" wouldn't without changing the punctuation.
 

Alexey86

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So, we have three examples:

1) So she decided to paint her house pink. It/this/that upset the neighbours a bit.

2) If Swan's example is natural, does it differ from mine regarding the choice of pronoun?

3) You said,
'This' and 'that' point at something — in this case, text that's nearby or at least a little further away." Doesn't this mean that 'it' is more appropriate when referential text is further away, as it is in my case?

The question is: why do they differ regarding the choice of pronouns?
 
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Alexey86

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I am, however, suggesting that you may sometimes have to accept that there is sometimes no completely satisfactory answer to the question 'Why?'

I totally understand that. There are many things in Russian I can't explain even to myself, but I still can use them correctly because I just feel what is right and wrong.
My knowledge and sense of English isn't good enough to use it without analysis and explanations. In this particular case the problem is that in Russian we would use the same pronoun in all three examples. That's why I need at least a partially satisfactory explanation or guide.

I would be happy if you would share your personal thoughts and insights on the subject.
 
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jutfrank

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If you can restate the main question clearly and concisely, Alexey, I'll have a go at answering ...
 

Alexey86

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If you can restate the main question clearly and concisely, Alexey, I'll have a go at answering ...

I'm not sure how exactly I should restate my question. I thought I put it as clear as possible in post #13:

So, we have three examples:


1) So she decided to paint her house pink. It/this/that upset the neighbours a bit.

2) If Swan's example is natural, does it differ from mine regarding the choice of pronoun?

3) You said,
'This' and 'that' point at something — in this case, text that's nearby or at least a little further away." Doesn't this mean that 'it' is more appropriate when referential text is further away, as it is in my case?

The question is: why do they differ regarding the choice of pronouns?

To put it more generally, I'd like to know in what cases we can use: a) all three pronouns as referential pro-forms/substitutes, b) only 'it', c) only 'this/that'.
 

jutfrank

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I can easily see Swan's sentence, but which is the one you're describing as 'mine'?

And why do what differ? The three choices in 1)? Sorry, I can't even understand the question. Because I haven't been following the thread, I can't work out what you're thinking about.

Perhaps you're wondering very generally about the differences between this/that/it?
 

Alexey86

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I can easily see Swan's sentence, but which is the one you're describing as 'mine'?

'Mine' refers to the third one. But I think it's of little importance (see below).

And why do what differ? The three choices in 1)? Sorry, I can't even understand the question. Because I haven't been following the thread, I can't work out what you're thinking about.

It isn't really necessary to follow the thread. I believe the three examples above are self-sufficient and can be considered without more context. I've gathered them from different replies as illustrations of the difference I'm talking about: 1) all three pronouns are possible, 2) only 'it' works, 3) only 'this/that' work. Why is it so?

Perhaps you're wondering very generally about the differences between this/that/it?

Basically, yes. I just hope the analysis of the three examples will reveal the key differences between these pronouns as anaphoric substitutes.
 

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Okay, I understand now. Let's see:

1) So she decided to paint her house pink. It upset the neighbours a bit.

Swan wrote this example as way to make the point that it doesn't give a 'special emphasis' that using this/that would give. The way I'd explain it is that it makes a 'normal' (non-demonstrative and non-deictic) kind of reference. This kind of reference is called in semantics anaphoric, which means that the reference word (It) refers to what comes before in the text, which here is the mention of painting her house pink. You could also rephrase the sentence using anaphoric which in place of it.

2) If Swan's example is natural, does it differ from mine regarding the choice of pronoun.

This is a very good example of anaphor, where it simply substitutes for Swan's example. This is a much better use of it than 1) because it's not necessary or appropriate to use a demonstrative (this/that) here. The reason that it isn't is that there is one discrete utterance (in this case a compound sentence), where the reference word, which is in the main clause, points to an antecedent in the subordinate clause of the same sentence. In 1), there are two utterances, written as two sentences, where the reference crosses an utterance boundary. That presents a case for using a demonstrative, because the reference is not quite so clear. This is what Swan means by 'special emphasis'. Remember what I said about using which in 1)—if you did, it would resolve the utterance boundary problem by creating a single grammatical unit (i.e., a single sentence).

3) You said, 'This' and 'that' point at something — in this case, text that's nearby or at least a little further away." Doesn't this mean that 'it' is more appropriate when referential text is further away, as it is in my case?

Be careful here. Although the demonstratives this/that can be well understood in terms of proximity, you should not attempt to understand it as having any relation to proximity. Think of this example in terms of what I've said above about the reference crossing utterance boundaries. For this reason, this is very appropriate in 3) whereas it is not.

Is that all clear? Or useful?
 

Alexey86

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Think of this example in terms of what I've said above about the reference crossing utterance boundaries. For this reason, this is very appropriate in 3) whereas it is not.

Sorry, jutfrank, I don't understand. Both 1) and 3) consist of two utterances and have a pronoun with boundary-crossing reference, right? Why does the former allow all three pronouns, while the latter only this/that?

2) If Swan's example is natural, does it differ from mine regarding the choice of pronoun.

This is a very good example of anaphor, where it simply substitutes for Swan's example. This is a much better use of it than 1) because it's not necessary or appropriate to use a demonstrative (this/that) here. The reason that it isn't is that there is one discrete utterance...

Let's consider the following example: If he leaves tomorrow, will it/this/that upset you?

Are all three pronouns possible here? If so, why does this example differ from 2) in terms of pronoun usage?

Let me share my thoughts. I can distinguish four types of reference in this discussion:
a) object reference within an utterance (Swan's example) => it
b) boundary-crossing reference to a fact/idea/thought ('this' and 'that' point at something — in this case, text that's nearby or at least a little further away) => this/that
c) boundary-crossing
reference to an event (she decided to paint her house pink) => this/that/it
d) event reference within an utterance (he leaves tomorrow) => this/that/it

What do you think?
One more question: Is there any difference in usage between It makes sense and This/that makes sense?
 
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