"relaxing, long bath" — Adjective order

[Talab1234]

Hi,

In the sentence, “I want to take a relaxing, long bath.” - is it grammatically correct to say this? Or should it be “I want to take a long, relaxing bath.”

Thanks

 

[GoesStation]

Hi, and welcome to the forum. :hi:

Please update your profile with correct information.

Either sentence is possible, but number two is more common. Sentence one puts a little more emphasis on "relaxing".

 

[Phaedrus]

Without the comma, only the second order works:

a long relaxing bath
[strike]a relaxing long bath[/strike]

 

[Talab1234]

Hi,

So “I want to take a long relaxing bath” is grammatically wrong? Thanks

 

[emsr2d2]

Without the comma, only the second order works:

a long relaxing bath
[strike]a relaxing long bath[/strike]

Hi,

So “I want to take a long relaxing bath” is grammatically wrong? Thanks

No. You've misunderstood. "... a long relaxing bath" was the second sentence in post #1. The fact that Phaedrus crossed out "a relaxing long bath" (and marked it in red) shows you that it is wrong.

 

[Talab1234]

Just to clarify

I want to take a relaxing, long bath. - Correct
I want to take a relaxing long bath - Wrong

Why is it wrong without the comma?

Thanks

 

[Phaedrus]

Just to clarify

I want to take a relaxing, long bath. - Correct
I want to take a relaxing long bath - Wrong

Why is it wrong without the comma?

That's not an easy question to answer. Native intuition makes all the difference here.

It is possible to use that order without the comma, but only if you give emphatic stress to "relaxing." This could be written in a few different ways:

italics: I want to take a relaxing long bath.
bolding: I want to take a relaxing long bath.
caps: I want to take a RELAXING long bath.

But it would be wrong to use that order without that special emphasis on "relaxing" and without a comma between "relaxing" and "long":

(i) [strike]I want to take a relaxing long bath.[/strike]
(ii) I want to take a relaxing, long bath.

If you say "I want to take a RELAXING long bath," you mean that you want to take a long bath that is relaxing: a [relaxing [long bath]]. You do not want to take a long bath that is not relaxing. "Relaxing" restrictively modifies the unit "long bath."

If you say "I want to take a relaxing, long bath" or "I want to take a long, relaxing bath," you mean that you want to take a bath that is both relaxing and long: a [relaxing] [long] bath / a [long] [relaxing] bath. Each adjective modifies "bath" separately.

Without the comma, and with no special emphasis, only the order "a long relaxing bath" works. While it is true that if you emphasized "long" ("I want to take a LONG relaxing bath"), "long" would restrictively modify "relaxing bath," that meaning is not present without that special emphasis.

Essentially, "long" has a different semantic status from "relaxing" in the normal order (as pronounced without special emphasis): "I want to take a long relaxing bath." According to one book, "long" would be categorized as an Epithet and "relaxing" as a Descriptor. Epithets precede Descriptors.

I don't expect you to understand that, especially with the jargon terms that I haven't defined. The definitions are intricate. It is worthwhile to observe, however, that the position of "relaxing" doesn't have to do with its length. The same order would need to hold if "relaxing" were changed to "hot":

I want to take a long hot bath.
[strike]I want to take a hot long bath.[/strike]

It is also worthwhile to observe that "long" is gradable in both cases, whereas "relaxing" and "hot" are not, unless they are emphasized or preceded by a comma. Gradability is one of the characteristics of "Epithets" as opposed to "Descriptors."

I want to take a very long relaxing bath.
[strike]I want to take a long very relaxing bath.[/strike]

I want to take a very long hot bath.
[strike]I want to take a long very hot bath.[/strike]

 

[Glizdka]

Not a teacher
------
Does it have anything to do with why there's a fixed order of adjectives (quantity before quality)?

I know interesting many facts.
I know many interesting facts.

 

[Rover_KE]

Talab1234, I hope you appreciate how lucky you are to have received such a detailed, knowledgable and comprehensive reply from Phraedrus.

We don't normally go to so much trouble for a new member who has given only untrue information in their profile, or has failed so far to have clicked the Thank button in the bottom left-hand corner of every post (except their own).

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Just to clarify

I want to take a relaxing, long bath. - Correct
I want to take a relaxing long bath - Wrong

Why is it wrong without the comma?

Thanks

Both are wrong. Put long first.

A comma is needed because both words are qualities that carry equal weight.

 

[Phaedrus]

Does it have anything to do with why there's a fixed order of adjectives (quantity before quality)?

Hello, Glizdka:

It definitely has to do with there being a fixed order of adjectives. The recipe seems to be more complicated than "quantity before quality," though. Consider:

(A) I watched a relaxing long movie.
(B) ?I watched a long relaxing movie.

Sentence (B), while perhaps not so bad as [strike]I want to take a relaxing long bath[/strike], wants a comma separating "long" and "relaxing":

(B') I watched a long, relaxing movie.

And of course we could also have a comma after "relaxing" in (A):

(A') I watched a relaxing, long movie.

Sentences (A') and (B') are equivalent in meaning. What, then, is the difference between (A) and (A')? It seems to be that "long" is naturally understood as specifying the nature of what is being described in a more central way than "relaxing," just as, in the case of Talab's bath, "relaxing" is naturally understood as specifying the nature of what is being described in a more central way than "long."

Without the comma, the "zones of premodification" need to be respected. According to the book I alluded to earlier*, there is a Descriptor zone and an Epithet zone, where Epithets precede Descriptors. Individual lexical adjectives can belong to more than one zone. As we have seen, it clearly matters which noun is being modified. The movie case is much different from the bath case.

Incidentally, another zone, closer than Descriptors to the noun being modified, is Classifiers, often realized by attributive nouns, like "bubble" in "bubble bath."

I want to take a long relaxing bubble bath.
[strike]I want to take a relaxing bubble long bath.[/strike]
[strike]I want to take a bubble long relaxing bath.[/strike]
[strike]I want to take a long bubble relaxing bath.[/strike]

*Premodifiers in English: Their Structure and Significance, by Jim Feist (Cambridge University Press, 2012)

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Here in the US, I've simply never heard anyone say "relaxing, long." I've always heard "long, relaxing."

Both words are qualities. You can't quantify either one. Neither has a size. So I don't think there's a heirarchy issue. It's a matter of common usage.

 

[Phaedrus]

Here in the US, I've simply never heard anyone say "relaxing, long." I've always heard "long, relaxing."

Both words are qualities. You can't quantify either one. Neither has a size. So I don't think there's a heirarchy issue. It's a matter of common usage.

How about this?

He put on some relaxing long johns.

 

[GoesStation]

How about this?

He put on some relaxing long johns.

Was that a satisfying long shot?

(Learners, please note that "long johns" (long underwear worn in cold climates) and "long shot" (an effort with a slim chance of success) are both fixed phrases. This post and the previous one don't demonstrate adjective order in any general way.)

 

[jutfrank]

Here in the US, I've simply never heard anyone say "relaxing, long." I've always heard "long, relaxing."

Both words are qualities. You can't quantify either one. Neither has a size. So I don't think there's a heirarchy issue. It's a matter of common usage.

No, that's all mistaken, I'm afraid. It really doesn't matter what you've heard and what you haven't heard. The point that Phaedrus is making is that the different orders mean different things. It isn't about common usage but about underlying linguistic rules. What people say is a product of the rules of language.

Secondly, long is not a quality. It signifies length, which is very much quantitative.