[General] Her sympathy was ours

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Hi,

The following is an extract from Frankenstein; I'd like to know whether or not the clause in bold contains a religious image. And what does it mean?

The saintly soul of Elizabeth shone like a shrine-dedicated lamp in our peaceful home. Her sympathy was ours; her smile, her soft voice, the sweet glance of her celestial eyes, were ever there to bless and animate us.


I'd appreciate your help.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

The phrase does not contain a religious image.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

The phrase does not contain a religious image.

What does that clause mean?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

They had her sympathy. She sympathized with them. They felt her sympathy. She was sympathetic toward them.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

They had her sympathy. She sympathized with them. They felt her sympathy. She was sympathetic toward them.

Did she feel their sympathy? Did she have their sympathy?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

The speaker isn't saying they were sympathizing with her.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

The speaker isn't saying they were sympathizing with her.

Doesn't the following suggest they were sympathizing with her in some way?

She was the living spirit of love to soften and attract: I might have become sullen in my study, rough through the ardour of my nature, but that she was there to subdue me to a semblance of her own gentleness. And Clerval—could aught ill entrench on the noble spirit of Clerval?—yet he might not have been so perfectly humane, so thoughtful in his generosity—so full of kindness and tenderness amidst his passion for adventurous exploit, had she not unfolded to him the real loveliness of beneficence, and made the doing good the end and aim of his soaring ambition.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

I'm not saying that no one sympathized with the saint. I'm saying that the written words "Her sympathy was ours" don't state or imply it.

The new quote you've introduced gives more information about why the speaker appreciates the saint. Appreciation isn't sympathy, but they often go hand in hand. So you're welcome to infer sympathy from the new quote. But not from the first one.

It's almost fifty years since I read the book, so I don't remember many details and can't comment more generally.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

I find the first quoted passage anything but a strong piece of evidence for Elizabeth's sympathy for Victor and Henry.

"her smile, her soft voice, the sweet glance of her celestial eyes, were ever there to bless and animate us" could have been the description of any girl of angelic beauty.

Evidence for Victor's and Henry's sympathy for her saintly qualities seems much stronger.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

I don't see this in the words you have quoted.

Both Victor and Henry were positively influenced by Elizabeth; this could not have happened if the two of them had not been sympathetic to her saintly qualities.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

I find the first quoted passage anything but a strong piece of evidence for Elizabeth's sympathy for Victor and Henry. . . .

I'd call it appreciation. I wouldn't call it sympathy, but you're welcome to.

Again, you'd be reasonable to think they might feel sympathy for her. I have no problem with that. That's the magic of engaging writing: It makes you imagine beyond the text. But the text you've posted doesn't explicitly state whether they do or don't feel sympathy.

I've already rephrased "Her sympathy was ours" for you. We had her sympathy. It was ours.

You don't have to agree. It sounds like you've already interpreted it to your own satisfaction. That's fine.

 

[jutfrank]

I find the first quoted passage anything but a strong piece of evidence for Elizabeth's sympathy for Victor and Henry.

You must be misreading it because the 'evidence' could not be stronger. Those four words are saying only one thing, very clearly and literally—that Elizabeth had sympathy for Victor and Henry.

I can't see how you could be misreading this. Also, where do you get the idea of an image from? What image are you imagining?

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

You must be misreading it because the 'evidence' could not be stronger. Those four words are saying only one thing, very clearly and literally—that Elizabeth had sympathy for Victor and Henry.

I can't see how you could be misreading this. Also, where do you get the idea of an image from? What image are you imagining?

I am asking if there is evidence for those four words, "Her sympathy was ours." Saying one thing does not mean there's strong evidene for it in the text. I'd expect a general statement to be supported by details.

The passage uses religious images such as "saintly," "celestial," "shrine-dedicated lamp," and "bless." I was entertaining the possiility that "her sympathy was ours" was also a religious image, maybe in relation to sainthood.

 

[jutfrank]

I am asking if there is evidence for those four words, "Her sympathy was ours."

Evidence for what? Have I misunderstood your question?

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Evidence for what? Have I misunderstood your question?

If I were presented with a general statement like "John is an excellent cook," I'd expect several sentences to illustrate how well he cooks.
Likewise, "her sympathy was ours" also leads me to expect details that illustrate her sympathy.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Also, where do you get the idea of an image from? What image are you imagining?

The only relevant sense of "sympathy" in the American Heritage Dictionary is mutual understanding or feeling between people. I'm thinking about the the practice of intercession of saints in Catholic belief. Catholics pray through saints, who they believe understand their feelings of anxiety, etc., and whose love and help they claim to have experienced.

 

[jutfrank]

If I were presented with a general statement like "John is an excellent cook," I'd expect several sentences to illustrate how well he cooks.
Likewise, "her sympathy was ours" also leads me to expect details that illustrate her sympathy.

Okay, I understand the question now. I thought you were asking if there was evidence within the four words themselves. Well, in this case 'evidence' is not really the right word because none is needed—the four words speak for themselves.

If I were presented with a general statement like "John is an excellent cook," I'd expect several sentences to illustrate how well he cooks.

That's reasonable because that statement is an opinion, i.e., a claim which could demand supporting evidence .

Likewise, "her sympathy was ours" also leads me to expect details that illustrate her sympathy.

This is a very different kind of utterance. It is not a claim, but an impression. You have no cause to question its truth, or to demand any justification. If I told you that I felt happy, you wouldn't ask me what evidence I had to say such a thing, would you?

 

[jutfrank]

The only relevant sense of "sympathy" in the American Heritage Dictionary is mutual understanding or feeling between people.

No, that's not right. The basic sense of sympathy is that it is not mutual. It flows one way. In this case, from Elizabeth to Victor and Henry.

This is not to say that it cannot be mutual, however.

 

[jutfrank]

The passage uses religious images such as "saintly," "celestial," "shrine-dedicated lamp," and "bless." I was entertaining the possiility that "her sympathy was ours" was also a religious image, maybe in relation to sainthood.

Okay, I see. But images is an inappropriate word. You've listed words, not images. An image is a picture.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

This is a very different kind of utterance. It is not a claim, but an impression. You have no cause to question its truth, or to demand any justification. If I told you that I felt happy, you wouldn't ask me what evidence I had to say such a thing, would you?

If you told me you felt happy, I'd be interested to know what made you happy. Something like "I won the lottery today" might be expected. Writing instructors typically say a written piece is supposed to have a structure that flows from general to specific.