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    #11

    Re: Is "l" a semivowel or a consonant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    It isn't 'nicknamed' clear l. That's what it's called.
    Thanks for correcting me, Piscean the typoman.

    Let me put it this way.

    The superimposed tilde symbol ~ on the small letter L resembles some clouds and when it's taken away, it's no longer in darkness.

    Strictly speaking, the meaning of 'dark' form the perspective of etymology is related to 'conceal' or 'obscure'.

    The typical quality of /l/ is concealed - by adding velarisaton to the alveolar-like sound. This might be the origin of 'clear' vs 'dark' in the use of phonetic terminology here.

    Incidentally, [l] in English phonology can be formally named voiced alveolar lateral approximant.


    Do you mean that /l/ in 'clan' is a voiceless fricative? That's a novel idea.
    Take clan, clean, cleat, clot, clay, inclined as examples.

    Yes, in some utterances, /l/, when fully devoiced, is realised as [ɬ].
    Simply put, if the effect of plosion (i.e. exploding the air out of your month) is long and strong enough to migrate to the next segment of speech sound, [l] will further assimilate to [ɬ], losing its voicing quality to a complete degree.

    The realisation of /l/ in the case of [ɬ] varies from speaker to speaker. It is observable in casual, colloquial or connected speech.

    When said in isolation or pronounced in a well-defined manner, /l/ can partially devoice to [l̥], retaining some voicing quality in the later part of that segment.


    What do you mean by 'when it falls on a stressed syllable'.
    When the syllable which contains /p/ followed by /l/ is stressed or accented, as in please, but not in implant /ˈɪmplɑːnt/ (as a noun) or /ˈkɒmplɪment/, /ˈkɒmplɪmənt/ complement (as a verb or a noun) .

    ======
    No offence intended in any of the replies.
    Last edited by Kenneth's softneʔtɪʔkʼ; 26-Oct-2020 at 09:20.

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    #12

    Re: Is "l" a semivowel or a consonant?

    The superimposed tilde symbol ~ on the small letter L resembles some clouds and when it's taken away, it's no longer in darkness.
    I see little resemblance to clouds here:[ɬ]

    Take clan, clean, cleat, clot, clay, inclined as examples.

    Yes, in some utterances, /l/, when fully devoiced, is realised as [ɬ].

    That symbol, the 'belted' l', [ɬ] is the symbol for the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative that exists in Welsh, but not in the English of most speakers in England. The velarised alveolar lateral approximant or 'dark l', has the /l/ with the tilde: [ɫ].
    Last edited by Piscean; 26-Oct-2020 at 13:11. Reason: typo
    Typoman - writer of rongs

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    #13

    Re: Is "l" a semivowel or a consonant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    I see little resemblance to clouds here:[ɬ]

    Pardon me? [ɫ] 😉

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post

    That symbol, the 'belted' l', [ɬ] is the symbol for the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative that exists in Welsh, but not in the English of most speakers in England. The velarised alveolar lateral approximant or 'dark l', has the /l/ with the tilde: [ɬ]
    This is a tilde ~

    and hence [ɫ]


    That's correct. The voiceless alveolar lateral fricative is a phoneme in Welsh, whereas it is not regarded as a phoneme in RP.

    <ll> is a digraph for [ɬ] in Welsh. 😉
    You may know the longest name of a town in Wales starts with this speech sound.
    Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrob

    Likewise, [ɦ] and [] are allophones of [h] in English and they can be a phoneme in other languages. Much to one's surprise, the velar ejective also exists in English.

    Some allophones do confuse learners of English, or even those having teaching experience. Some certain allophones are not recommended to learners as they might be told the manifestation is wrong.

    Please note that a phoneme notated by a particular symbol representing one of the meaningful units of speech sound is not comparable across languages, despite being expressed as the same notation.

    And an allophone of one language should not be directly referred to as another speech sound existing in another language, which might be a phoneme or a allophone of that language.

    Due regard should be had to treatment of concepts and notation of phonetics and a related discipline - phonology. Thank you.

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    #14

    Re: Is "l" a semivowel or a consonant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth's softneʔtɪʔkʼ View Post



    This is a tilde ~

    and hence [ɫ]
    I have corrected that typo. Sorry.
    Typoman - writer of rongs

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    #15

    Re: Is "l" a semivowel or a consonant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth's softneʔtɪʔkʼ View Post


    Likewise, [ɦ] and [] are allophones of [h] in English and they can be a phoneme in other languages. Much to one's surprise, the velar ejective also exists in English.

    Some allophones do confuse learners of English, or even those having teaching experience. Some certain allophones are not recommended to learners as they might be told the manifestation is wrong.

    Please note that a phoneme notated by a particular symbol representing one of the meaningful units of speech sound is not comparable across languages, despite being expressed as the same notation.

    And an allophone of one language should not be directly referred to as another speech sound existing in another language, which might be a phoneme or a allophone of that language.

    Due regard should be had to treatment of concepts and notation of phonetics and a related discipline - phonology. Thank you.
    I don't see what this has to do with the subject of this thread.
    Typoman - writer of rongs

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    #16

    Red face Re: Is "l" a semivowel or a consonant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    I don't see what this has to do with the subject of this thread.
    It is an extension to what Mr/Miss Piscean pinpointed.
    Sorry for misleading the flow of the thread to some related phonetic concepts. Deepest apologies. Oops... rong collocation here. My profuse apologies.

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    #17

    Lightbulb Re: Is "l" a semivowel or a consonant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post

    Do you mean that /l/ in 'clan' is a voiceless fricative? That's a novel idea.

    From Wikipedia

    Fortition also frequently occurs with voiceless versions of the common lateral approximant [l], usually sourced from combinations of [l] with a voiceless obstruent. The product is a voiceless alveolar lateral fricative [ɬ].
    (emphasis mine)
    The allophone does exist, if one takes phonological process into account.

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    #18

    Re: Is "l" a semivowel or a consonant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth's softneʔtɪʔkʼ View Post
    The allophone does exist
    As I said in post 12, "the 'belted' l', [ɬ] is the symbol for the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative that exists in Welsh, but not in the English of most speakers in England".
    Typoman - writer of rongs

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    #19

    Re: Is "l" a semivowel or a consonant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    As I said in post 12, "the 'belted' l', [ɬ] is the symbol for the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative that exists in Welsh, but not in the English of most speakers in England".
    It's a phoneme in the Navajo language. A British anthropologist who encountered the Navajo in the nineteenth century reported that they spoke Welsh, presumably because he heard that phoneme.
    I am not a teacher.

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