"Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English speaker

[GoodTaste]

"Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English speaker

Jack, an American, was invited to take part in his Chinese friend's wedding ceremony.
When the bride arrived, Jack cried in admiration:"The bride is so beautiful!"
His Chinese friend replied with "Where! Where!" - it is a Chinese word (directly translated into English here) that tended to show the replier's humble or modest manner when being flattered.
But Jack misunderstood it and echoed with "Everywhere! Everywhere! Eyes, nose, month...all are beautiful!"
All the Chinese guests burst into laughter!

===========================
The question here is what to reply when you want to show a self-efacing gesture when being flattered. "Where! Where!" doesn't seem to work in English.

 

[GoodTaste]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

As the person uttering the words in the situation you outline is not being praised/flattered, he might, if English, reply "I think so too".

I don't understand. If your friend praised your bride - "The bride is so beautiful!", isn't it a flatter? You can reply with "I think so too" of course. But if you want to show that you're overly flattered (because the bride is yours, your other half, you both are one), if you want to show that you should be modest in accepting such praise because there are many beautiful brides (of other people's) in the world, what do you reply?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

Any praise of my bride is in no way flattering me. Even something like 'You're a lucky man' or 'You made a good choice' is still praising the bride. I am not being flattered.

It would probably be interpreted as bragging about how beautiful your bride is. So in that situation "Where, where?" would make sense.

 

[SoothingDave]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

Except that "where where" does not make sense to a native speaker. Try something like "you're too kind" or "who? me?"

 

[GoodTaste]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

"who? me?"

Can the adjective "beautiful" be used to describe a man? Isn't the word "handsome" sufficient for man to be proud of himself?

 

[SoothingDave]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

Men aren't usually called "beautiful." I was giving general advice on how to deflect a compliment, a way to look humble.

 

[TheParser]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

NOT A TEACHER

Good Taste, I was fascinated by your thread because I studied a little Chinese many decades ago, but I never learned about "Where Where."

So I checked the Web and found a good explanation for interested members (and guests). Go to Google and type in these words: How to Ask Where in Chinese. Chinese for us.

 

[tedmc]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe



I think there is a miscommunication in the translation of the expression "where? where" ([FONT=&quot]哪里, nali) [/FONT] in Chinese in reply to the compliment about the bride being beautiful. Chinese culture encourages modesty, humility and denial of praises or compliments. But in western culture, when someone gives you a compliment, it is polite to say "thank you". However, in Chinese culture, accepting a compliment like that is considered being proud, so one is expected to be modest and deny the compliment by saying "nali, nali". The literal translation is "where, where?" but it is actually an expression to deny a compliment, like saying, "not at all".

 

[Tarheel]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

It is, apparently, a definite cultural difference. In my country the polite thing to do when someone gives you a compliment is to say Thank you.

 

[GoodTaste]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

I think there is a miscommunication in the translation of the expression "where? where" (哪里, nali) in Chinese in reply to the compliment about the bride being beautiful. Chinese culture encourages modesty, humility and denial of praises or compliments. But in western culture, when someone gives you a compliment, it is polite to say "thank you". However, in Chinese culture, accepting a compliment like that is considered being proud, so one is expected to be modest and deny the compliment by saying "nali, nali". The literal translation is "where, where?" but it is actually an expression to deny a compliment, like saying, "not at all".

Self-effacing is not self-denial. The gist of the traditional Chinese culture is the idea of "Being modest makes you progress while being proud make you regress."

The translation - "not at all" has made the gist or implication lost and thus is much worse than "Where? Where?", which is a modest way or a humble gesture to show the gratitude in heart (because the speaker is delighted to hear it) - That is, Chinese says "Thank you" in heart while English says "Thank you" in both mouth and heart.

The phrase "Where? Where?" reflects in a colloquial way the happy medium (中庸之道). The Happy Medium is at the core of traditional Chinese culture or Confucianism. It refuses going to extremes and thus the translation "not at all", which has gone to extremes, is a bust.

It appears not transferable if limited to a few words. So far "Where? Where?" is one of the best, compromised though, translations because the uncertainty that the phrase shows trickily induces your good wishes.

 

[Tarheel]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

It appears not translatable if limited to a few words. So far "Where? Where?" is one of the best compromises though, translations because the uncertainty that the phrase shows trickily induces your good wishes.

You totally lost your way with the last part of the last sentence.

 

[tzfujimino]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

Just out of curiosity, how do native speakers of Chinese respond to that ("Where? Where?")?

(Edit) I've googled "nali nali" and found this:
https://www.google.com/amp/www.lang...son-cultural-differences-nali-nali?format=amp

 

[Tarheel]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

Those Chinese phrases do not, I think, translate well into English. Also, I would hope that if I took the trouble to give somebody a compliment that they would not tell me they do not deserve it. Just say Thank you.

 

[GoodTaste]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

You totally lost your way with the last part of the last sentence.

I wrote compromised. Why have you changed it into compromises and then said “lost your way”? (Typo correction: I did think "translatable" in mind, somehow it appeared to be "transferable" there. But, even with "transferable"(of, or relating to the quality of information that transfers from one culture to another), this last part is still clear (though not immediately understandable to you).

So I am sorry. Because you changed "compromised" into "compromises", it is you who have made it "totally lost the way".

 

[GoodTaste]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

Just out of curiosity, how do native speakers of Chinese respond to that ("Where? Where?")?

(Edit) I've googled "nali nali" and found this:
https://www.google.com/amp/www.lang...son-cultural-differences-nali-nali?format=amp

Since Western Culture has profoundly influenced today's youth in China. Traditionally excellent Chinese texts are in rapid decline in use in China (it seems to be next to none that today's Chinese youth can speak or write in excellent Chinese). I believe traditionally excellent English is suffering the same fate in English-speaking countries. Blame smartphones and computers, which offer easy ways to overwhelmingly publish poor Chinese or English.

Traditionally, well-educated Chinese would respond to "哪里？哪里？" with "过谦了" ("Too modest (you are)". Responding with "谢谢” in the link you offered is completely a result of the Western Culture's influence.

 

[probus]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

I wrote compromised. Why have you changed it into compromises and then said “lost your way”? (Typo correction: I did think "translatable" in mind, somehow it appeared a "transferable".)

Even with " compromised" the paragraph is unintelligible.

 

[GoodTaste]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

Even with " compromised" the paragraph is unintelligible.

Let's take a look at it again:

It appears not translatable if limited to a few words. So far "Where? Where?" is one of the best translations because the uncertainty that the phrase shows trickily induces your good wishes. (For the convenience of analysis, I removed "compromised though").

Since it is not translatable, so "Where? Where?" is simply a makeshift; a best makeshift that is achievable rather than a real translation.
"Nali? Nali?" ("Where? Where?") in Chinese itself is deliberately vague in expressing; it tends to reflect the traditional Chinese idea of "中庸之道“ (the happy medium). Of course "not at all" is understandable to you native English speakers, yet it has lost the subtle way the original Chinese means to convey. So the cultural difference is not "transferable" from Chinese to English. Further, using "not at all" in the OP would ruin the humor of the story.

 

[GoesStation]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

So far "Where? Where?" is one of the best translations because the uncertainty that the phrase shows trickily induces your good wishes.

On the contrary, it's a useless translation. Why? Because it doesn't mean anything like its Chinese meaning in English. English readers would be mystified by the phrase as a response to a compliment.

Is that clear enough? Please don't presume to tell native speakers how you think we should understand the phrase.

 

[probus]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

Cultural differences are one of the principal difficulties translators face in any pair of languages. If the tranlator is aware of this problem in a particular case, the dilemma is whether to be brief and hope the reader understands, or to be prolix and lauch into a cultural explanation.

 

[Tarheel]

Re: "Where! Where!" - the Chinese self-effacing word that misleads native English spe

I wrote compromised. Why have you changed it into compromises and then said “lost your way”? (Typo correction: I did think "translatable" in mind, somehow it appeared to be "transferable" there. But, even with "transferable"(of, or relating to the quality of information that transfers from one culture to another), this last part is still clear (though not immediately understandable to you).

So I am sorry. Because you changed "compromised" into "compromises", it is you who have made it "totally lost the way".

I was making my best guess.