t in "/tɔːk/" vs t in "/treɪn/"

[shadowsinner]

Hi all,

I'm confused about the IPA symbols used for words such as "train", because the "t" sound in this word is distinctly different from the "t" sound in "talk", for example (unless I've been pronouncing "talk" incorrectly my entire life). However, looking it up in dictionaries, one can plainly see that the word "train" is expressed as "/treɪn/", while the word "talk" is expressed as "/tɔːk/" - same t symbol, but to me, very different sounds.

Are both "t" sounds supposed to be the same? I know when we teach phonics, we say "ts...a-ts" for the t sound, but we do not say "tsalk". The "t" sound only really comes out when we distinctly pronounce the back of words like "that"... the last "t" in "that" definitely sounds like a "ts" or "tch" sound. Why are they written the same in IPA when they sound different?

Also, the word "train" sounds to me like "chain" with an r in it. However, "chain" is expressed in IPA as "/tʃeɪn/"... so shouldn't "train" be "/tʃreɪn/"?

Thanks for your help in advance.

 

[jutfrank]

Also, the word "train" sounds to me like "chain" with an r in it.

Yes, you're right—it does sound like that.

 

[shadowsinner]

Transcriptions between slashes are phonemic, not phonetic. Native speakers think of the sounds in the words you mention as the same sound, but they are actually different allophones. The /t/ of 'train' is post alveolar [t̠], while that of 'talk' is alveolar and aspirated [tʰ].

There are so many allophones of most phonemes, most of which native speakers are completely unaware of, that most dictionaries, course books, grammars and teachers of English stick with phonemic transcriptions.

Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction. I did some research, and "t" has two allophones... suddenly everything is clear. Thank you again.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Yes, you're right—it does sound like that.

Train is not pronounced chrain anywhere I've ever been!

It's a hard T. Like talk.

It's a ch in future, culture, furniture, and suture and often in suit yourself — but not in train. That would be a tongue-twister!

 

[GoesStation]

Train is not pronounced chrain anywhere I've ever been!

Pay very close attention to the sounds you produce when you say "train". You'll find that's exactly how you say it.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Pay very close attention to the sounds you produce when you say "train". You'll find that's exactly how you say it.

No, it's not.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

I think if you had had some training in phonetics you would realise that the /t/ in 'talk' is very different from the 't' in 'train' for many native speakers of English . . . .

Some people might do that. I don't. It's a T.

I feel like I'm getting gaslighted here!

 

[GoesStation]

Some people might do that.

What do you hear when you listen to the American and Canadian speakers' samples here? (They all pronounce the /t/ the same way.)

 

[jutfrank]

Train is not pronounced chrain anywhere I've ever been!

Well, it's not exactly like 'chrain' but it's pretty close, I think.

It's a hard T. Like talk.

I guarantee you, you don't pronounce it like that.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

What do you hear when you listen to the American and Canadian speakers' samples here? (They all pronounce the /t/ the same way.)

I hear a bit of ch in some of them. (It might even be all of them. The recordings aren't all very distinct.)

I understand that some people do it. There are all kinds of ways to speak English. I just don't think it's universal.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . I guarantee you, you don't pronounce it like that.

1. You've never heard me talk.

2. It's a small point.

3. We're getting nowhere here.

4. I think the original question has been answered. Let's pull the plug on this one!

 

[GoesStation]

Do you pronounce "train" like "terrain"? The only way to avoid softening the /t/ into a "ch"-like sound before an /r/ is to interpose a schwa, however brief it might be.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

I love this chread.

 

[shadowsinner]

Transcriptions between slashes are phonemic, not phonetic. Native speakers think of the sounds in the words you mention as the same sound, but they are actually different allophones. The /t/ of 'train' is post alveolar [t̠], while that of 'talk' is alveolar and aspirated [tʰ].

There are so many allophones of most phonemes, most of which native speakers are completely unaware of, that most dictionaries, course books, grammars and teachers of English stick with phonemic transcriptions.

Piscean,

According to this website: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tree#Pronunciation the word tree is transcribed as [t̠ɹ̠̊˔ʷɪi̯]. Do you think this is an accurate transcription? Some sites show [ʈʂ] or even [t͡s], and so I'm confused as to which is best.

Thanks for your help.

 

[emsr2d2]

Initially, I thought the idea of "train" sounding like "chrain" was absurd. Then I said "train" aloud and realised that it sounded remarkably similar. Then I said aloud what I would say if I actually saw the non-existent word "chrain" and realised it sounded exactly like the way I say "train". I can, of course, say "train" differently - if I were enunciating very carefully, I would be able to make it clear that it's a "t" then an "r" but in everyday speech, that's not the case.