Tom Cat vs Felix the Cat vs The Lion King

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Alexey86

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1. Why do two-part animal names always take a proper name in the first place? Why is it Tom Cat but never Cat Tom by analogy with President Trump or Mother Theresa?

2. Why do some of such names take the and some don't (Tom Cat, Felix the Cat)?

3. Why is it The Lion King but not The King Lion like King Richard?
 
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GeneD

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In the lion king there are no proper names, no?
 

Charlie Bernstein

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Where have you seen the proper noun Tom Cat?

I've never seen it as a proper noun. As far as I know, it's always a common noun: tomcat.
 

Alexey86

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Where have you seen the proper noun Tom Cat?

I've never seen it as a proper noun. As far as I know, it's always a common noun: tomcat.

It's from Tom and Jerry
 

SoothingDave

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I've managed to live over 50 years and never knew that Tom in "Tom and Jerry" had a surname.
 

jutfrank

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Let's get something straight:

1) Tom Cat This is the name of a cartoon character. As Piscean has revealed, Tom is the forename and Cat is the surname. (Who knew that?!)

2) Felix the Cat This is not the name of a cartoon character. It is the name of a comic strip. The cat's name is Felix.

3) The Lion King This is not the name of a cartoon character. It's the name of a film. The lion's name is Simba.
 

Alexey86

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2) Felix the Cat This is not the name of a cartoon character. It is the name of a comic strip. The cat's name is Felix.

It is also a cartoon character: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_the_Cat.

3) The Lion King This is not the name of a cartoon character. It's the name of a film. The lion's name is Simba.

That's true. But it doesn't change the question: Why is it The Lion King, not The King Lion?

Another example:

514KdxNpH5L._SX329_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg s-l600.jpg

What's the difference between The King Boy and The Boy King? Is it about the metaphorical (the former) vs literal meaning (the latter) distinction?
 
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Alexey86

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One question per post, please.

I thought all three questions were related in that they're all about a name's/title's structure.

The King boy is a boy whose surname is King.

You're right, the boy's name is Benjy King. But doesn't the book's title suggest a metaphor?
 
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jutfrank

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No, it isn't. This seems to be a point of confusion.


But it doesn't change the question: Why is it The Lion King, not The King Lion?

The word order of The Lion King is another, short, way to say 'the king of the lions'. It doesn't work, or make sense, the other way round.

What's the difference between The King Boy and The Boy King?

I originally had no idea what The King Boy is supposed to mean. It doesn't sound right. Only the light of what you've said about King being his surname allows this to make sense. Think of this as the writer trying to play with words.

The phrase The Boy King is not comparable to The Lion King because it does not mean 'the king of the boys'. In this case it means 'the king who is a boy'.

Is it about the metaphorical (the former) vs literal meaning (the latter) distinction?

I don't know what you mean.
 

Alexey86

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No, it isn't. This seems to be a point of confusion.

Here's a cartoon with this character: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amGbBFsiuzc

The phrase The Boy King is not comparable to The Lion King because it does not mean 'the king of the boys'. In this case it means 'the king who is a boy'.

Let's consider for a moment king an official title, not a surname. If The Boy King means the king who is a boy, would The King Boy mean the boy who is a king?

I don't know what you mean.

I mean King as a surname is meaningful. The author might suggest the boy is in some way like a king, but not in a literal sense: The King Boy = the boy who is (like) a king.
 
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probus

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Heavens, you must be young, jutfrank. When I was a child, seventy years ago, American television was full of Felix The Cat cartoons. I suppose the networks liked them because they were cheap, being ancient even then.

Betty Boop cartoons were frequent running mates for Felix. They were ancient too, and of course we children failed to understand their raunchy jokes.
 

jutfrank

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Heavens, you must be young, jutfrank.

I don't know what I've said to make you think I'm young, probus. I'm quite familiar with Felix the Cat, even though it first appeared well before my time, back in 1919.
 

Charlie Bernstein

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Heavens, you must be young, jutfrank. When I was a child, seventy years ago, American television was full of Felix The Cat cartoons. I suppose the networks liked them because they were cheap, being ancient even then.

Betty Boop cartoons were frequent running mates for Felix. They were ancient too, and of course we children failed to understand their raunchy jokes.
Yup, Felix with his little bag of tricks. My friend Tony used to do a great Felix imitation: "Open, bag, and give me my hash pipe!"

I had a girlfriend in high school whose aunt was the Betty Boop voice. Marsha could do a pitch-perfect Boop-oop-a-doop. Uncanny.

Which reminds me of a great trivia question: What was the cartoon character's name before they changed it to Betty Boop?

You can probably Google it.
 
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Charlie Bernstein

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Here's a cartoon with this character: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amGbBFsiuzc

I used to watch it every Saturday.


Let's consider for a moment king an official title, not a surname. If the boy king means the king who is a boy, would the king boy mean the boy who is a king?

No, we wouldn't switch it around. No one is the king of boys. Boys are often kings. So the adjective boy modifies king.

I mean King as a surname is meaningful.

In real life, the surname has no special significance. In fiction, yes, it can meaningful.


The author might suggest the boy is in some way like a king, but not in a literal sense: The King Boy = the boy who is (like) a king.

It's a good theory, but no one would get it — as Jutfrank said in post #13.
Does that clear up anything?
 
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Alexey86

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Does that clear up anything?

One thing is not quite clear. When you say you wouldn't switch the boy king around, do you mean the king boy with king as an attributive noun modifying boy wouldn't make sense at all? Or, maybe you can think of a context where it would make sense.
 

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One thing is not quite clear. When you say you wouldn't switch the boy king around, do you mean the king boy with king as an attributive noun modifying boy wouldn't make sense at all? Or, maybe you can think of a context where it would make sense.
It makes sense and is natural if you capitalize "King". The King boy means "the boy from the King family". Forgive me if this was covered up-thread.
 

jutfrank

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Here's a cartoon with this character: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amGbBFsiuzc

I don't know why you've directed me there. I think I inadvertently gave the impression that I'm not familiar with Felix the Cat. I am.


Let's consider for a moment king an official title, not a surname. If The Boy King means the king who is a boy, would The King Boy mean the boy who is a king?

No, it doesn't mean that. Apparently, The King Boy means 'the boy whose name is King'. Right?


I mean King as a surname is meaningful.

You have a knack of getting to the most difficult questions. Does King as a surname have a meaning? Philosophers have been debating this for decades. I think you could argue this, yes.

The author might suggest the boy is in some way like a king, but not in a literal sense: The King Boy = the boy who is (like) a king.

Yes, I presume that's exactly right, though I haven't read the book. Okay, now I see exactly what you mean. I would say that the writer of the book has deliberately played on the idea that names can have meaning.

I feel I should elaborate a bit on what I said earlier about Felix the Cat not being a name of a cartoon character. My point really was to attempt to begin to untangle what I saw as certain points of confusion in your OP about what names are, and what they mean. Here's a little terminology that might help:

Felix [This is what is called in grammar a proper noun. It consists of just one word and is used to identify a unique individual thing in the world. In philosophy, you can call this (problematically, in my view) a 'name'. One way to think about this is to ask whether you could use this word to alert the referent's attention. In other words, would it make sense to say "Hey, Felix" to the cat himself? Yes, it would.]

the cat [This is what's called in grammar a noun phrase. It's a syntactic unit which includes the word cat, which is itself a common noun. That means it refers to a type of thing in the world. In that way, it should not be considered as a name.]

Felix the Cat [This is what's called in grammar a proper name. It consists of a proper noun (Felix) and a noun phrase (the Cat) that includes a common noun (Cat). It is, in my view, a different kind of name from Felix, which can be understood differently. That is, you wouldn't say "Hey, Felix the Cat" to try to get his attention. That shows it has a different kind of reference, and that's what I meant when I said Felix the Cat is not the 'name' of the character, but of the comic. (Another way I could have put this was to say that Felix the Cat is the name of the character/comic but not the name of the cat itself, but I thought that was much too confusing.)]
 
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Tarheel

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I don't know why you want to make "king boy" into something. The term "boy king" applied to a monarch who hadn't come of age. He might have inherited the kingship but not be ready to assume the the throne yet. Or he might have assumed the throne but be quite youthful (both in appearance and reality).

(If I remember right Alexander was 17 when his father, Philip of Macedonia, died, and Alexander assumed the kingship.)
 
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