Meaning of the word residence

[josswallace]

I am currently trying to ge a definition of the word residence for use in my discussions with HMRC.

For a period of about a year we owned a flat in London worth about £1,000,000 and rented a house in the country at a rent of £2,000 per month and it is our contention that we had two residencies. The discussion with HMRC is not about which is our prime residence, we have nominated the flat as our prime residence. The discussion is all about how you define residence and my quest at the moment is to try and narrow the options down. Specifically I want to know whether a person who owns one property and rents a second property could be considered to have no residence.

Obviously I am trying to get the argument stated in such a way that it becomes an issue as to which of the two properties was our residence at any point in time, which is clearly a different argument than just saying "is property X a resedency"

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[Tdol]

Specifically I want to know whether a person who owns one property and rents a second property could be considered to have no residence.

Are they living in the rented property?

 

[Tdol]

I don't see how living in a rented property means you have no residence. It might affect your taxation (not a lawyer, and this is more a legal question than the general meaning)

 

[jutfrank]

It isn't up to you to try to define the word. You need to find the existing definition, which the HMRC will be using. In cases like this, concepts such as residence have (usually) well-defined uses. Here's a link to a legal dictionary:

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Residence#:~:text=n.,, the state of incorporation. (

 

[josswallace]

We are in this position precisely because HMRC refuse to define what they mean by residence.

There seems to be no statuary definition of the term residence in relation to private residence relief purposes. HMRC can not argue that the home was a residence in the accepted use of english but the occupation of such home did not constitute enough use to be considered the prime residence. They lost that case because they dont have the control over which residence is nominated as prime, that is up to the individual.

The only way that HMRC can win is to not accept that the dwelling in question is a residence although it appears to be up to the individual to demonstrate that the dwelling is a residence. If one can establish that for a person with two properties then one of them must be his residence it becomes an issue of which one is the residence.

 

[probus]

Although I am not a lawyer I specialized in taxation work at Deloittes for several years long ago. It is well established in tax law both in Canada and in other common law countries (other than the USA) that a person can be simultaneously resident for tax purposes in more than one jurisdiction. Further, once you have acquired the status of resident in a country, it's a difficult thing to get rid of.

You had best get a lawyer or chartered accountant who is familiar with international taxation. It won't be cheap but will probably be well worth the cost. Yours in not the sort of problem that should be tackled without professional help.

 

[josswallace]

Although I am not a lawyer I specialized in taxation work at Deloittes for several years long ago. It is well established in tax law both in Canada and in other common law countries (other than the USA) that a person can be simultaneously resident for tax purposes in more than one jurisdiction. Further, once you have acquired the status of resident in a country, it's a difficult thing to get rid of.

You had best get a lawyer or chartered accountant who is familiar with international taxation. It won't be cheap but will probably be well worth the cost. Yours in not the sort of problem that should be tackled without professional help.

Thanks for your response but I don't see the issue as being international.

Currently HMRC are saying that they don't accept the nomination of our flat as our main residence as the fact that we had put it on the market ment that it could not be described as a residence. However other Tax experts have told me that the house we rented can not be termed a residence as the landlord had already applied for permission to demolish and we were only there on a short term lease.

Currently I am trying to get my head around the fact that for the best part of a year we owned a property worth over £1,000,000 and rented a second property at £2,000 per month yet we did not have a residence. It doesn't fit at all with my view of common language useage but need to find a way to counter HMRC's objections.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

I am currently trying to ge a definition of the word residence for use in my discussions with HMRC.

For a period of about a year we owned a flat in London worth about £1,000,000 and rented a house in the country at a rent of £2,000 per month, and it is our contention that we had two residences. The discussion with HMRC is not about which is our primary residence. We have designated the flat as our primary residence. The discussion is all about how you define residence, and my goal at the moment is to [STRIKE]try and[/STRIKE] narrow the options down. Specifically I want to know whether a person who owns one property and rents a second property could be considered to have no residence.

If you live in one of them, that's your residence. You reside there.

If you don't live in either of them, then you reside somewhere else. If you live there six months out of the year, then it's your residence for those six months.

If you rent one out to someone else, then you don't reside there. It's not your residence. It's the tenant's residence.

Obviously I am trying to get the argument stated in such a way that it becomes an issue as to which of the two properties was our residence at any point in time, which is clearly a different argument than just saying "is property X is a residence."

Any help would be much appreciated.

A residency is not a residence and has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Thanks for your response, but I don't see the issue as being international.

Currently HMRC are saying that they don't accept the designation of our flat as our main residence, as the fact that we had put it on the market meant that it could not be described as a residence. However other tax experts have told me that the house we rented cannot be termed a residence, as the landlord had already applied for permission to demolish and we were only there on a short-term lease.

Currently I am trying to get my head around the fact that for the best part of a year we owned a property worth over £1,000,000 and rented a second property at £2,000 per month, yet we did not have a residence. It doesn't fit at all with my view of common language usage, but I need to find a way to counter HMRC's objections.

In the US, if you have a short-term lease, that would prove residence. Likewise, if you can show a deed, rent receipts, utility bills, or other documents that establish that you live somewhere, that works here, too. As long as you live in it, a house on the market is still your residence.

But I don't know what they want to see in the UK.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

You really need an expert on tax law, not a linguist, as a couple of other members have already suggested.

Exactly. Don't waste your time here.