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  1. #1
    Rachel Adams is offline Key Member
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    Open syllables

    Do you teach your students open syllables?
    Is it true that the rule doesn't always work? For example, in "hello".

  2. #2
    Rachel Adams is offline Key Member
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    Re: Open syllables

    Quote Originally Posted by Piscean View Post
    What rule?
    The first vowel in a word with an open syllable is pronounced as an alphabetical letter. As in "fine". The first "i" is pronounced as "i". But it doesn't work in "hello."

  3. #3
    emsr2d2's Avatar
    emsr2d2 is offline Moderator
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    Re: Open syllables

    The "i" in "fine" does sound like the way we say the letter "i", but that's because of the "e" at the end of the word. That's what changes the pronunciation of the other vowel. There's no "e" at the end of "Hello".

    The "i" is pronounced differently in the three-letter words from how it's pronounced in the four-letter words below:

    fin > fine
    min > mine
    tin > tine

    It's the same for other vowels:

    tom > tome
    dun > dune
    man > mane
    bed > bede
    Remember - if you don't use correct capitalisation, punctuation and spacing, anything you write will be incorrect.

  4. #4
    Rachel Adams is offline Key Member
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    Re: Open syllables

    It says an open syllable is a syllable which ends with a vowel. If the open syllable is stressed the vowel is said as the letter of the alphabet. But why do they give the word "fever" I don't understand. This word and other words with it aren't open syllable words.

    Слог называется открытым, если заканчивается на гласную. Если на открытый слог падает ударение, то чтение гласной в нем совпадает со чтением гласных в алфавите. Таким образом, a произносится как [ei], e — [i], o — [əʊ] или [oʊ] (в британском и американском вариантах английского, соответственно), u — [juː], а буквы i и y обе читаются как [aɪ]. Например:

    ba-sic [ˈbeɪ.sɪk]
    fe-ver [ˈfiː.vɚ]
    ri-val [ˈraɪ.vəl]
    mo-tor [ˈmoʊ.t̬ɚ]
    mu-sic [ˈmjuː.zɪk]
    de-ny [dɪ’naɪ]


    ************************************************** ******

    этому типу чтения относятся и слова с немой e в конце слова. Например, в следующих словах буква e не произносится, но гласные читаются по правилам открытого слога:

    take [teɪk]
    Pete [pi: t]
    kite [kaɪt]
    nose [nəʊz]
    cute [kju:t]

    It also says the same rule applies to the words above.The "e" is not pronounced, but the syllable is open.


    ************************************************** *********

    Если открытый слог безударный, то все гласные, кроме o, читаются иначе: a — [ə], e и y — [ɪ], i — [ɪ] или [ə], u остается [ju:] или превращается в [jə]. Например:




    In the open syllable vowels are pronounced differently except the "o" as in "zero".
    machine [məˈʃiːn]
    election [iˈlek.ʃən]
    city [ˈsɪt.i]
    accident [ˈk.sɪ.dənt]
    zero [ˈzɪə.rəʊ]
    ambulance [ˈm.bjə.ləns]

    Is the "o" related exception related to the word "hello"?

    Source https://skyeng.ru/articles/kakie-byv...lijskom-yazyke
    Last edited by Rachel Adams; 22-Dec-2020 at 12:53.

  5. #5
    Glizdka is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Open syllables

    Not a teacher
    ------


    It seems like you're trying to learn how to reconstruct how words are pronounced based on how they're spelled. I don't think it's the right approach with English. It will only give you the false sense of assurance that you know how to pronounce anything you see, and make you disappointed. It just doesn't work like that with English orthography.

    For some words, their pronunciation has changed over the years while their spelling stayed the same, "ancient". Some started weird from the get go, like queue. And some are exceptions just for the sake of being different. You'll find countless exceptions for every rule you find.

    I think it's better to just look up the words you're not sure about in a good dictionary that has an IPA transcription or a recording, like Cambridge Dictionary, and learn them one at a time.

    I suggest that if you want to read about English, you should do it in English, not Russian. Anything written about English in Russian might've been written by a native speaker of Russian who's a learner themselves. Besides, you'll be able to practice your English while reading about English. There's also the added benefit of being able to share it on this forum I wouldn't expect many members of to speak Russian.

  6. #6
    Skrej's Avatar
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    Re: Open syllables

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel Adams View Post
    The first vowel in a word with an open syllable is pronounced as an alphabetical letter. As in "fine". The first "i" is pronounced as "i". But it doesn't work in "hello."
    'Fine' isn't an example of an open syllable. It's an example of the vowel-consonant-e syllable type (alternately called 'bossy e', 'magic e', 'sneaky e', 'silent e' or various other cutesy mnemonic terms).

    'Hello' is comprised of two syllables - a closed syllable (hel) and an open syllable (lo).

    There are six basic syllable types in English (although some break the double vowels down into two for a total of seven):
    1. Open - no consonant on end, vowel is long.
    Examples: me, and the second syllable in hello
    2. Closed - ends with a consonant, has a short vowel sound.
    Example: cat, hit, pot
    3. Vowel-Consonant-E (aka silent e, sneaky e, bossy e, etc.) - just as the pattern says, it's a vowel followed by a constant ending in the letter 'e'.
    Examples: fine,cake,Pete
    4. Vowel team - two vowels work together to produce one vowel sound.
    Examples: steam, boil
    5. R-controlled - the letter r follows a vowel, and colors/controls/influences the vowel sound to where it's neither long nor short.
    Examples: star, cord,skirt
    6. Consonant-L-E - as the pattern says, the word ends with a consonant followed by the letter L and a final E.
    Examples:table, bubble, circle

    Some people make a distinction with the fourth pattern, and separate the diphthongs (two vowels blending into a new sound such as boil, loud) from the digraphs (two vowels making one sound such as meat, float) into a seventh syllable type. I'm not going to argue for or against that, but simply mention it so you're aware why you may see a list of seven syllable types instead of six.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel Adams View Post
    It says an open syllable is a syllable which ends with a vowel. If the open syllable is stressed the vowel is said as the letter of the alphabet. But why do they give the word "fever" I don't understand. This word and other words with it aren't open syllable words.
    ba-sic [ˈbeɪ.sɪk]
    fe-ver [ˈfiː.vɚ]
    ri-val [ˈraɪ.vəl]
    mo-tor [ˈmoʊ.t̬ɚ]
    mu-sic [ˈmjuː.zɪk]
    de-ny [dɪnaɪ]
    All of those words have an open syllable, (type 1 on my list), followed by a closed syllable (type 2). You have to look at each syllable in a word, and apply the appropriate rule. The pronunciation rules govern only individual syllables, not the entire word (unless it's a one-syllable word).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel Adams View Post
    take [teɪk]
    Pete [pi: t]
    kite [kaɪt]
    nose [nəʊz]
    cute [kju:t]
    It also says the same rule applies to the words above.The "e" is not pronounced, but the syllable is open.
    It's not the same rule. None of those are open syllables. Those are all examples of the silent e (type 3) rule.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel Adams View Post
    In the open syllable vowels are pronounced differently except the "o" as in "zero".
    machine [məˈʃiːn]
    election [iˈlek.ʃən]
    city [ˈsɪt.i]
    accident [ˈk.sɪ.dənt]
    zero [ˈzɪə.rəʊ]
    ambulance [ˈm.bjə.ləns]

    Is the "o" related exception related to the word "hello"?
    'Zero' is comprised of two open syllables, and rule 2 on my list applies to both of them, just as it does to the 2nd syllable in 'hello'.

    I think your confusion may be a result of not looking at each individual syllable and recognizing that a multi-syllabic word may be comprised of different syllable types.
    Wear short sleeves! Support your right to bare arms!

  7. #7
    Rachel Adams is offline Key Member
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    Re: Open syllables

    Quote Originally Posted by Skrej View Post
    'Fine' isn't an example of an open syllable. It's an example of the vowel-consonant-e syllable type (alternately called 'bossy e', 'magic e', 'sneaky e', 'silent e' or various other cutesy mnemonic terms).

    'Hello' is comprised of two syllables - a closed syllable (hel) and an open syllable (lo).

    There are six basic syllable types in English (although some break the double vowels down into two for a total of seven):
    1. Open - no consonant on end, vowel is long.
    Examples: me, and the second syllable in hello
    2. Closed - ends with a consonant, has a short vowel sound.
    Example: cat, hit, pot
    3. Vowel-Consonant-E (aka silent e, sneaky e, bossy e, etc.) - just as the pattern says, it's a vowel followed by a constant ending in the letter 'e'.
    Examples: fine,cake,Pete
    4. Vowel team - two vowels work together to produce one vowel sound.
    Examples: steam, boil
    5. R-controlled - the letter r follows a vowel, and colors/controls/influences the vowel sound to where it's neither long nor short.
    Examples: star, cord,skirt
    6. Consonant-L-E - as the pattern says, the word ends with a consonant followed by the letter L and a final E.
    Examples:table, bubble, circle

    Some people make a distinction with the fourth pattern, and separate the diphthongs (two vowels blending into a new sound such as boil, loud) from the digraphs (two vowels making one sound such as meat, float) into a seventh syllable type. I'm not going to argue for or against that, but simply mention it so you're aware why you may see a list of seven syllable types instead of six.




    All of those words have an open syllable, (type 1 on my list), followed by a closed syllable (type 2). You have to look at each syllable in a word, and apply the appropriate rule. The pronunciation rules govern only individual syllables, not the entire word (unless it's a one-syllable word).



    It's not the same rule. None of those are open syllables. Those are all examples of the silent e (type 3) rule.




    'Zero' is comprised of two open syllables, and rule 2 on my list applies to both of them, just as it does to the 2nd syllable in 'hello'.

    I think your confusion may be a result of not looking at each individual syllable and recognizing that a multi-syllabic word may be comprised of different syllable types.
    Thank you so much for the detailed explanation. My nephew is 11. His school textbooks are not helpful. Is it early to teach him these rules? They don't study phonics at school and for transcription "they are too young" as teachers say here.

  8. #8
    Skrej's Avatar
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    Re: Open syllables

    Reading instruction in the US system is sort of hit & miss, and the pedagogues change from time to time. I can't recall receiving much explicit instruction in phonics. As I recall, emphasis was on sight reading and word recognition at the time. However, part of the reason I didn't receive reading instruction was that I was reading on my own before even starting school. I'm told I just sort of took off reading on my own, asking questions when I had problems with pronunciation. I don't know if I just intuitively applied phonics, or just relied on sight recognition. I vaguely remember some other kids in my class receiving reading instruction, but I was left to read on my own while other reading instruction was going on. I first learned about explicit reading instruction years later as an adult while learning to be an ESL teacher, and was pretty shocked to learn there was actually a lot of logical rules that governed what I had somehow internalized without ever being formally taught.

    I don't know that there's a lot of consensus, but what there is seems to suggest that at least in the US, phonics based instruction typically starts in first grade, or maybe even in kindergarten. That would correspond to about five to six years old. They might not get all the syllabification rules necessarily in one grade level, though. The syllable rules aren't of much use until there's phonological awareness of the letters. If

    Different kids are ready for at different ages, but at eleven, your nephew seems plenty old enough to start tackling English reading if he can find a competent instructor of English. Generally speaking, the younger kids start learning a new language, the easier it is for them to pick it up, all other factors being equal. My local school district has been running a dual-language pilot program at one of the local elementary schools. Starting in kindergarten through 5th grade, students receive instruction in both English and Spanish, so again that would be roughly 5-10 years of age. The goal is to have all the students fully bilingual by the time they complete 5th grade.

    Unless there are additional factors I'm unaware of, the whole "too young" argument from his teachers just sounds like an excuse. They either don't want to do it, or may not know how to do it. I don't buy the 'too young' concept. As I said, younger is (generally) better for language absorption.
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