syntax vs. grammar

Status
Not open for further replies.

richelle

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Tagalog
Home Country
Philippines
Current Location
Philippines
if i may ask you sir...
what is the difference between them?

if grammar is all about rules...
and syntax is sentence formation...

what is the difference then?

thank you!
 

BobK

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
Location
Spencers Wood, near Reading, UK
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
Wow! 10 views so far, and nobody wants to be the first to step into this minefield. Here's a first shot (rather from the hip).

The second syllable of syntax is a clue to its relationship to the word 'tactics'. It's the order that you put words in, much as a tactician deploys troops for various effects.

'Grammar' has widely differing meanings - particularly descriptivist (the way things are in fact) and prescriptivist (the way someone thinks things should be.

A descriptive grammar specifies a syntax for any particular language - the way words are actually put together to convey meaning. A prescriptive grammar prescribes a syntax (the way sentences should - according to a fairly random set of 'rules' - be put together).

b (adopting foetal position and logging off immediately)
 

Humble

Senior Member
Joined
May 21, 2006
Hello, Richelle,
Grammar is the framework of a language. It is a study or science that has two parts: morphology (the forms of words) and syntax (the combination of words into sentences).
Morphology studies verbs, nouns, adjectives etc.
Syntax deals with their functions in sentences - subjects, objects, attributes etc.
To know you is to love you.
To know, to love are both verbs (infinitives) - that's morphology.
But they have different functions: to know is the subject, to love is part of the predicate - that's syntax.

Why is it a minefield, Bob? Because some pugnatious people hate the word rules? Descriptivists who take part in forums like this think they make learning languages easier, but it's just the opposite - non-native learners have to remember numerous exceptions in addition. One has to know where exactly the rules can be lax.

Regards
 

MikeNewYork

VIP Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Wow! 10 views so far, and nobody wants to be the first to step into this minefield. Here's a first shot (rather from the hip).

The second syllable of syntax is a clue to its relationship to the word 'tactics'. It's the order that you put words in, much as a tactician deploys troops for various effects.

'Grammar' has widely differing meanings - particularly descriptivist (the way things are in fact) and prescriptivist (the way someone thinks things should be.

A descriptive grammar specifies a syntax for any particular language - the way words are actually put together to convey meaning. A prescriptive grammar prescribes a syntax (the way sentences should - according to a fairly random set of 'rules' - be put together).

b (adopting foetal position and logging off immediately)

I think you did a fine job. :-D
 

riverkid

Key Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Member Type
English Teacher
BobK:

'Grammar' has widely differing meanings - particularly descriptivist (the way things are in fact) and prescriptivist (the way someone thinks things should be.

A descriptive grammar specifies a syntax for any particular language - the way words are actually put together to convey meaning. A prescriptive grammar prescribes a syntax (the way sentences should - according to a fairly random set of 'rules' - be put together).


Why is it a minefield, Bob? Because some pugnatious people hate the word rules? Descriptivists who take part in forums like this think they make learning languages easier, but it's just the opposite - non-native learners have to remember numerous exceptions in addition. One has to know where exactly the rules can be lax.

Regards

Good job, Bob!

The problem as I see it is that very few really understand what Descriptivism is. In actuality, it is Descriptivism that describes the minute details of language, the basic rules of language. Prescriptivism has never ever ever attempted this.

All Prescriptivism has done is make up rules according to some individual's personal tastes. That is, on its face, ludicrous in the extreme. You don't study something and inject personal taste and opinion in that study.

Everyone admits that this is what Prescriptivism is and yet so many still give it far far too much credence.

Humble, it is Prescriptivism that has never followed the rules of English, the rules Bobk describes as, let me run and get the exact quote, ... "(the way things are in fact)".

Descriptivists love rules, the factual rules, not some made up nonsense.
 

rewboss

Key Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Member Type
English Teacher
The argument about whether descriptivism or prescriptivism is the better approach to grammar is irrelevant to this thread and most likely unhelpful to richelle.
 

riverkid

Key Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Member Type
English Teacher
The argument about whether descriptivism or prescriptivism is the better approach to grammar is irrelevant to this thread and most likely unhelpful to richelle.

I think it is spot on important. When ESLs come to realize that prescriptions are merely demanded for tests and have no connection to real language, the time will come when we are able to put these nonsensical "rules" to rest.

When that happens, ESLs won't have to go through a false learning process. They'll be informed from the outset how language is really used.
 

MikeNewYork

VIP Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I think it is spot on important. When ESLs come to realize that prescriptions are merely demanded for tests and have no connection to real language, the time will come when we are able to put these nonsensical "rules" to rest.

When that happens, ESLs won't have to go through a false learning process. They'll be informed from the outset how language is really used.

You are singing the same old song. ESL students are smart enough to realize that prescriptivism sets the rules for standard English. And, most of them come here seeking those rules. You can denigrate prescriptivism all you want, but you can't change it.
 

riverkid

Key Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Member Type
English Teacher
You are singing the same old song. ESL students are smart enough to realize that prescriptivism sets the rules for standard English. And, most of them come here seeking those rules. You can denigrate prescriptivism all you want, but you can't change it.

That is an absolute falsehood, Mike. I'm not at all sure you understand what Prescriptivism is.

++++++++++++
CGEL:

There are also topics in a descriptive grammar that are uniformly ignored by prescriptivists These include the most salient and well-known principles of syntax. Prescriptive works tend to be highly selective, dealing only with points on which people make mistakes (or what are commonly thought to be mistakes).

++++++++++++++++
 

rewboss

Key Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Member Type
English Teacher
My earlier comment was made as a moderator, and I reiterate it here:

This thread is about the difference in meaning between the technical terms "grammar" and "syntax". It is not about the relative merits and demerits of prescriptivism or descriptivism.
 

Amygdala

New member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
To a non-linguist (or someone who doesn't teach English), the distinction between prescriptivism or descriptivism is not helpful in understanding the
difference between syntax and grammar. The reason is that the definitions are much too vague. Is syntax a sub-set of grammar?
 

johanna42

New member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Re: syntax vs. grammar (1984)

I am an English teacher, and I would love a crisp understanding of the difference between syntax and grammar. Would it be correct to say that syntax (word order) is a subset of grammar? For example, English syntax would be SVO, while in English grammar the 'V' might be inflected to agree with the S or change with tense.

I am currently reading (and teaching!) 1984 to my ESL students. In the novel, during 'hateweek' preparations the announcer changes the enemy from Eurasia to Eastasia. According to the novel, an announcer switches enemies mid-sentence. The announcer does not pause, nor does he break his syntax. (The crowd is not meant to know that the enemy has changed; they are only meant to believe that Eastasia has always been the enemy.) The announcer's ability to switch enemies mid-sentence shows his proficiency lying... (and/ or ability to internalize lies and spout them as truth.) I would love to explain the significance of this sentence to my students.... Any thoughts on how to explain it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top