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    #1

    Grammar

    Another question! Here is a sentence;
    ('The air in Pankot was wonderful compared with the plains') Here meaning the air in the plains. I could write ' compared with that of the plains' I know, but can't I also write or say as in the first sentence? Isn't it as good as a sentence like for example: ('My apartment is bigger compared with my brother's). What is the difference here? I was told I CAN'T say '...the plains'. I agree it sounds a bit awkward but why is it wrong??:(

  1. Philly's Avatar

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    #2

    Re: Grammar

    Hi Agnes
    .
    Personally, I don't really see a problem with your first sentence. I don't think anybody would misunderstand it.
    .
    The bigger problem is this sentence: My apartment is bigger compared with my brother's. That sounds really strange to me. You should say either My apartment is big compared with my brother's or My apartment is bigger than my brother's.
    .
    Maybe somebody else will have further comments about your first sentence...


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    #3

    Re: Grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by Philly View Post

    You should say either My apartment is big compared with my brother's or My apartment is bigger than my brother's.
    Really?
    I don't see why "my apartment is bigger compared with my brother's" is wrong.

    I know comparative adjectives precede "than".

    Comparative adjectives don't accompany "compared with" ?
    (FYI, I am non-native.)


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    #4

    Re: Grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by Philly View Post
    Hi Agnes
    .
    Personally, I don't really see a problem with your first sentence. I don't think anybody would misunderstand it.
    .
    The bigger problem is this sentence: My apartment is bigger compared with my brother's. That sounds really strange to me. You should say either My apartment is big compared with my brother's or My apartment is bigger than my brother's.
    .
    Maybe somebody else will have further comments about your first sentence...
    agreed


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    #5

    Re: Grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnes View Post
    Another question! Here is a sentence;
    ('The air in Pankot was wonderful compared with the plains') Here meaning the air in the plains. I could write ' compared with that of the plains' I know, but can't I also write or say as in the first sentence? Isn't it as good as a sentence like for example: ('My apartment is bigger compared with my brother's). What is the difference here? I was told I CAN'T say '...the plains'. I agree it sounds a bit awkward but why is it wrong??:(
    Simply, it is wrong because you are comparing the air in Pankot with the plains. If you mean the air of the plains, you really should say that.

    You could argue 'everybody knows what I mean', but why should the listener/reader be expected to make those deductions, and make an effort to work out what you meant? The onus is on you to make yourself clear.


    Quote Originally Posted by siruss
    I don't see why "my apartment is bigger compared with my brother's" is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by siruss
    Comparative adjectives don't accompany "compared with" ?
    You are right that comparatives shouldn't be used with 'compared with'.
    'Bigger' is already a comparative term, so saying 'bigger compared with' is repeating the same idea. A similar repeated term that is seen too often is 'the reason (...) is because'.


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    #6

    Re: Grammar

    [quote=Andrew Whitehead;160358]Simply, it is wrong because you are comparing the air in Pankot with the plains. If you mean the air of the plains, you really should say that. --> So, you mean "The air of Pankot was wonderful compared with that (=the air) of the plains." is correct, right? (or could you give a right sentence? )
    I absolutely understand the point. But what I'm not sure about is the reason why "The air of Pankot was wonderful compared with the plains' (air) " is wrong. Is "The plains' (air)" not grammatically correct?


    You could argue 'everybody knows what I mean', but why should the listener/reader be expected to make those deductions, and make an effort to work out what you meant? The onus is on you to make yourself clear.

    -->You can say that again.



    You are right that comparatives shouldn't be used with 'compared with'.
    'Bigger' is already a comparative term, so saying 'bigger compared with' is repeating the same idea. A similar repeated term that is seen too often is 'the reason (...) is because'. --> Is it called "redundancy?[/quote]

    Kindly ask for your reply. Thank you very much.
    Last edited by siruss; 16-Mar-2007 at 16:42.

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    #7

    Re: Grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Whitehead View Post
    Simply, it is wrong because you are comparing the air in Pankot with the plains. If you mean the air of the plains, you really should say that.

    You could argue 'everybody knows what I mean', but why should the listener/reader be expected to make those deductions, and make an effort to work out what you meant? The onus is on you to make yourself clear.





    You are right that comparatives shouldn't be used with 'compared with'.
    'Bigger' is already a comparative term, so saying 'bigger compared with' is repeating the same idea. A similar repeated term that is seen too often is 'the reason (...) is because'.

    I am NOT comparing the air in Pankot with the plains as you make it sound. It's the air of the plains and that's why I put an apostroph at the end of the word plains', which is where my question springs from. Why can't I say plains's air then if that makes it clearer? Am i making myself clear now? I could also have written "the air in Pankot is better than the plains's" Forget about the 'comparing with' here. Can I say plains' in the sentence or not??

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    #8

    Re: Grammar

    1. The air in Pankot was wonderful, compared with the plains'.
    2. The air in Pankot was wonderful, compared with the plains.
    3. The air in Pankot was wonderful, compared with that of the plains.
    4. The air in Pankot was wonderful, compared with the air of the plains.

    #1 is grammatically fine, but unidiomatic. I don't think anyone who heard the sentence would suspect that an apostrophe might be present. (Also, I doubt whether you would ever see "the plains' air" in print; though "the plains air" might occur.)

    #2 is idiomatic; but since the notion of "the air of the plains" is only implicit, some readers would be distracted by the inadvertent air/plains comparison.

    #3 is grammatical and unambiguous; but it might sound a little mannered, to some readers.

    So I would probably choose #4, if I wanted a quiet life.

    All the best,

    MrP

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    #9

    Re: Grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPedantic View Post
    1. The air in Pankot was wonderful, compared with the plains'.
    2. The air in Pankot was wonderful, compared with the plains.
    3. The air in Pankot was wonderful, compared with that of the plains.
    4. The air in Pankot was wonderful, compared with the air of the plains.

    #1 is grammatically fine, but unidiomatic. I don't think anyone who heard the sentence would suspect that an apostrophe might be present. (Also, I doubt whether you would ever see "the plains' air" in print; though "the plains air" might occur.)

    #2 is idiomatic; but since the notion of "the air of the plains" is only implicit, some readers would be distracted by the inadvertent air/plains comparison.

    #3 is grammatical and unambiguous; but it might sound a little mannered, to some readers.

    So I would probably choose #4, if I wanted a quiet life.

    All the best,

    MrP

    Thanks a lot MrP. Your explanation is very clear. I am glad that the first one is not grammatically wrong, and as you say, for the sake of a quiet life... I'll stick to the forth version then!


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    #10

    Re: Grammar

    Better late than never, so they say:

    Do you remember punctuating possessives? Look at your use of plains' and then look at the word boys'. I'll bet you know how many plains and boys are referred to here. (a boy's dog, two boys' dog)Your punctuation indicates the several plains beyond the city but we almost have to ask "the plains' what?" If you agree and would make reading as easy for the reader as can be, then I'm sure you can see why either "that of the plains," or "the air of the plains" will work better. "The plains's air" has a rather "funky" ring, don't you think?

    If you like, think about the subject of the sentence, air, and you can see how the pronoun that brings it out again and 'balances" (or parallels, as we English teachers love to say) the ideas in the sentence: the air in Pankot and the air 'in' the plains.

    Cheers! Keep writing (. . . and read your work aloud. It helps!)!

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