is firstly correct

[Casiopea]

It seems kind of rough on them.

When there is more than one option available, the rule of thumb is to know your audience. So, yes, your company or school's style guide helps, but not if you're writing for a company, house, or institution that doesn't share the same views on style. Styles will vary, so know your audience. ;-)

 

[nyggus]

When there is more than one option available, the rule of thumb is to know your audience. So, yes, your company or school's style guide helps, but not if you're writing for a company, house, or institution that doesn't share the same views on style. Styles will vary, so know your audience. ;-)

A good point, Casiopea, which also raises quite similar issues I tried to address in my posts in this thread. Some professional science journals are so friendly to their authors that they give very strict rules, even those including the Oxford comma, punctuation within quotations, and the like. Writing to such journals is a little easier for non-native English authors (if they find strength to struggle through usually, in such instances, quite long guidelines for authors). If this is not the case, the authors have to decide about rules to apply and the journal editors claim whether the decisions were or were not wrong.

Nyggus

 

[Delmobile]

Isn't that what copyeditors are for? For heaven's sake, if they've got scientists contributing articles, can't they just clean it up and say, "We edited your contribution to comply with our style guidelines. Your article will appear in Vol. XX this August" or whatever? I don't see why the scientists have to spend time worrying about what goes inside the quotation marks.

 

[nyggus]

Isn't that what copyeditors are for? For heaven's sake, if they've got scientists contributing articles, can't they just clean it up and say, "We edited your contribution to comply with our style guidelines. Your article will appear in Vol. XX this August" or whatever? I don't see why the scientists have to spend time worrying about what goes inside the quotation marks.

First of all, I do agree with you, I really do - especially as a NNES! But note that not all journals have copyeditors, this is one thing. Second (note: I used second, not secondly!), core journals have so many good papers that don't want to worry about such things; between two equally good papers that would be chosen which has better language (or the authors of which are better known ;-)). Which is sad, I think. I know a journal, let me not name it here, which is so strict that if you make one language mistake after proof-reading, the paper is quite likely to be rejected at this stage. It's nonsense IMO. But what can we do? Nothing, it's their journal and their rules, and if people choose to publish there, it exists.

Believe me, the life of non-native English speakers quite often is not easy when it comes to writing...

Nyggus

 

[sameer1728]

It's not only about my audience or readers because not more than 2% of them will notify the differece.However I wanted to know if Firstly is absolutely wrong.It seems the global opinion is divided.........

 

[Casiopea]

A good point, Casiopea, which also raises quite similar issues I tried to address in my posts in this thread. Some professional science journals are so friendly to their authors that they give very strict rules, even those including the Oxford comma, punctuation within quotations, and the like. Writing to such journals is a little easier for non-native English authors (if they find strength to struggle through usually, in such instances, quite long guidelines for authors). If this is not the case, the authors have to decide about rules to apply and the journal editors claim whether the decisions were or were not wrong.

Nyggus

Nyggus, you speak as if you believe native English speakers are born writers; that's just not true. Even I have more than several style guides at hand's reach, not to mention that when I am writing an article the very first thing I do is find out who my audience is going to be. If I don't have that style guide, I look it up; if there isn't a style guide that can accommodate my audience, then I use the most conservative style--which, yes, also requires research on my part as well as the ability to have confidence in whatever style I end up choosing. Writers not only create, the tend to set the standard; i.e., how many entries in the Oxford English Dictionary come from radio broadcasts--spoken English?

It's not easy for anyone, native or non-native writers. Writers, no matter their first language, are not born knowing which style accommodates which audience; they research it--because the first rule of writing is know your audience.

 

[Casiopea]

I don't see why the scientists have to spend time worrying about what goes inside the quotation marks.

Journals have guidelines. ;-) Having spent eight years of my life in university, I can safely say from experience that, yes, indeed, scientists do in fact worry about style. ;-)

 

[sameer1728]

--because the first rule of writing is know your audience.
.....
That's really well said ,Casiopea

 

[Casiopea]

I know a journal, let me not name it here, which is so strict that if you make one language mistake after proof-reading, the paper is quite likely to be rejected at this stage.

That's rather strict, I agree. But, and in all fairness, on the first day of classes in university, the profs tell you to go get the style guide for the departments for which you will be writing papers. There is more than one style guide even in university--which is why I have those several at hand's reach that I mentioned. :lol:

 

[nyggus]

Nyggus, you speak as if you believe native English speakers are born writers; that's just not true. Even I have more than several style guides at hand's reach, not to mention that when I am writing an article the very first thing I do is find out who my audience is going to be. If I don't have that style guide, I look it up; if there isn't a style guide that can accommodate my audience, then I use the most conservative style--which, yes, also requires research on my part as well as the ability to have confidence in whatever style I end up choosing. Writers not only create, the tend to set the standard; i.e., how many entries in the Oxford English Dictionary come from radio broadcasts--spoken English?

It's not easy for anyone, native or non-native writers. Writers, no matter their first language, are not born knowing which style accommodates which audience; they research it--because the first rule of writing is know your audience.

Casiopea, I totally agree with you! But still the problem is actual: that a NNES may be told he/she is wrong even if is not. If the very same text were written by a native English speaker (NES), he/she would not be told this. This is somehow sad, but I know I have to live with this till the end of my days. I claim that this is true because I simply have encountered several quite funny, but sad situations. Let me take some more time of yours:
Imagine a NNES writes a piece of scientific writing with a colleague who is a NES. They submit it somewhere. After some time the NNES receives a message from the NES co-author, who writes that he received a letter from the editor (also a NES) of the same journal they had submitted the article to, and the editor asked him to evaluate the piece because "there are serious problems with the language". So you see this NES co-author was acknowledged to be an expert in the language (of course in this particular field). The editor simply didn't know he was the co-author of this piece. Do you imagine how the editor felt after learning the fact?!

I let you to decide whether this situation is at all possible, and whether any of members of this forum has encountered it in his or her life. I hope, Casiopea, you understand my point. I don't want to attack anyone, I just try to share my thoughts with all of you: that NNESs' live is not that easy when it comes to writing. And actually I do understand it, I really do. Our language is far too often unacceptable, but sometimes - see the example below - those who evaluate us are biased if they know an author is a NNES. This is live, and what can we do? Thus I think strict rules would be of help to many, but there are no strict rules in the language, with which we all have, more or less, agreed. But language lives, and this is beautiful. Isn't it?

Nyggus

 

[nyggus]

Journals have guidelines. ;-) Having spent eight years of my life in university, I can safely say from experience that, yes, indeed, scientists do in fact worry about style. ;-)

And I think they should: writing is an intrinsic part of science. And scientists who publish their results are, basically, writers, aren't they? And any writer should worry about how he/she is writing.

Nyggus

 

[Casiopea]

It's not only about my audience or readers because not more than 2% of them will notify the differece.However I wanted to know if Firstly is absolutely wrong.It seems the global opinion is divided.........

First, what are you writing, who will publish it, and does the discipline (i.e., English language: MLA) have a style guide? There are style guides for writing, and writers state which style guide they are using. You too can do that. Second, you're in India, so is your audience expecting the British style or the American style? Third and last, according to the random sample (See post #35), the UK preference is for first, second(ly), third(ly), not firstly, secondly, thirdly. The US preference is for consistency and economy, first, second, third.

Answer those questions, and you'll have enough information to make an informed choice.;-)

 

[Delmobile]

I used to copyedit for a literary journal that published primarily NNES' work, so maybe this has colored my viewpoint. Of course everyone should try to submit copy that is error-free and in accordance with the style of the particular journal to which they are submitting. However, it seems incredibly petty and just not very sensible to expect chemists, mathematicians, biologists, and the like to master the intricacies of points like first-or-firstly for every journal out there.

But I know very little about the world of academic publishing, which I am sure is fraught with peril on every side. And if they really aren't hiring copyeditors, well, I guess the burden of all this must fall upon the poor authors.

 

[Casiopea]

... that a NNES may be told he/she is wrong even if is not. If the very same text were written by a native English speaker (NES), he/she would not be told this. This is somehow sad, but I know I have to live with this till the end of my days.

No, you don't. That's why we have so many style guides, Nyggus. Choose the ones for your area (e.g., English, science, math, etc), find the one that your colleagues or classmates or other writers are using, and use it as your reference, and state that in your paper, article, etc. If you do that, you will be covered. A style guide is a writer's bible.

... the editor asked him to evaluate the piece because "there are serious problems with the language". So you see this NES co-author was acknowledged to be an expert in the language (of course in this particular field). The editor simply didn't know he was the co-author of this piece.

From what I gather, you seem to believe that native English speaker means expert, and that's just not true. Moreover, "serious problem with the language", to me, means expression, not style. That is, the authors weren't able to clearly express their intended meaning. That's something that pertains to all writers, not just second-language learners. Furthermore, you can be an excellent writer, irrespective of your first language, and yet not know the first thing about how to structure an proper argument. Scientific writing has guidelines. In fact, when I was in school, I spent more than several years reading the work of past and present day scholars to learn how to structure an argument. It's an art, and language doesn't buy you that skill. It's learned.

I don't want to attack anyone, I just try to share my thoughts with all of you: that NNESs' live is not that easy when it comes to writing. And actually I do understand it, I really do. Our language is far too often unacceptable, but sometimes - see the example below - those who evaluate us are biased if they know an author is a NNES.

I don't live in Poland, so I can't relate, sorry. But I can tell you that most journals I read are housed with papers written by non-native speakers. Their work is published. ;-)

...I think strict rules would be of help to many, but there are no strict rules in the language, with which we all have, more or less, agreed.

Choose a style guide, Nyggus, and choose it wisely.

 

[Casiopea]

... it seems incredibly petty and just not very sensible to expect chemists, mathematicians, biologists, and the like to master the intricacies of points like first-or-firstly for every journal out there.

It's not as if they have to open some great big book and look up the answers with a magnifying glass (e.g., the OED :lol. No. They have had to write scientific papers all through university, through grad school, and into their PhD. So, they've had the experience; they know how to write; if they have a question, the style guide is a readily available reference. ;-)

...if they really aren't hiring copyeditors, well, I guess the burden of all this must fall upon the poor authors.

The reason being, the people who decide which papers make it into a given journal usually are other professors, scientists, peers, etc. They have their own papers to write, their own classes to teach.
______________________
When I was a grad student, one of my responsibilities as a teaching assistant (TA) to a prof was to edit his papers, which he would then re-edit and have me edit again. :roll:

 

[nyggus]

I don't live in India, so I can't relate, sorry.

I don't, either ;-) . I'm writing from Poland.

Choose a style guide, Nyggus, and choose it wisely.

I'll try and do my best! And thanks for your comments, which are really helpful and, most important, encouraging!

Best,
Nyggus

 

[Casiopea]

You're most welcome, Nyggus, and my apologies for writing the wrong country. I saw my mistake and quickly edited it. The post showed up at 22:18, a minute after your above post.

 

[nyggus]

You're most welcome, Nyggus, and my apologies for writing the wrong country. I saw my mistake and quickly edited it. The post showed up at 22:18, a minute after your above post.

To make you feel better, I would be extremely happy to visit India, believe me! I hope to do that some time...

Nyggus

 

[Casiopea]

Who wouldn't! :up: