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    #1

    Arrow Grammar

    Hello !

    Would like to have your guidance for followings ;

    1. Which one is more formal or more objective expression among the three?
    As far as I understand, there seem to be two opposite opinions on this. I'm
    so confused ;

    1) I think him honest
    2) I think him to be honest
    3) I think that he is honest

    2. Re relative clause with "where" to talk about a specific place there is one
    example "I recently went back to the town where I grew up" (this is also
    too difficult to me) ;

    1) I recently went back to the town I grew up (x) [where can't be omitted]
    → Is this correct and why?

    2) I recently went back to the town that I grew up (x) [where can't be
    changed into that] → Is this correct and why?

    Hope to hear soon and thanks in advance,

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    #2

    Re: Grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by deepcosmos View Post
    Hello !

    Would like to have your guidance for followings ;

    1. Which one is more formal or more objective expression among the three?
    As far as I understand, there seem to be two opposite opinions on this. I'm
    so confused ;

    1) I think him honest
    2) I think him to be honest
    3) I think that he is honest
    For me, 1 and 2 are not possible. If you substitute "think" with "believe" then 2 sounds good and 1 still sounds a little funny. If you substitute "think" with "consider" then 1 and 2 sound good, but not 3.

    See what the others say.

    Quote Originally Posted by deepcosmos View Post
    2. Re relative clause with "where" to talk about a specific place there is one
    example "I recently went back to the town where I grew up" (this is also
    too difficult to me) ;

    1) I recently went back to the town I grew up (x) [where can't be omitted]
    → Is this correct and why?

    2) I recently went back to the town that I grew up (x) [where can't be
    changed into that] → Is this correct and why?

    Hope to hear soon and thanks in advance,
    In this context, "where = "in which".

    I recently went back to the town where I grew up =
    I recently went back to the town in which I grew up.

    But we like the preposition after the complement so we say:
    I recently went back to the town which I grew up in.

    Now we can change "which" to "that" because it sounds better:
    I recently went back to the town that I grew up in.

    And now we can eliminate "that" because it isn't necesary between two nouns (town and I):

    I recently went back to the town I grew up in.

    Lou


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    #3

    Re: Grammar

    Hi there.

    First of all, let me state that this is my own opinion based on my experience. I'm not an educator of any sort; just a consummate user of the language.

    Regarding the first question:
    #1 seems incomplete and abrupt to me, though I believe it may be spoken
    #2, though it is grammatically correct, it doesn't sound right, like the first one
    #3 is my choice among the three

    If I may, I'd suggest the following:
    He seems honest to me

    Regarding the second question:
    #1, correct, you can't remove the where unless you append the preposition "in" to the sentence. Removing the where would remove the meaning/significance between "town" and "I grew up".
    #2, correct, and the best way I can explain myself in this scenario is, "that" does not fully encompass the meaning you're trying to express as compared to "where". I'd say that "that" may be used if you have "in" after your sentence.


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    #4

    Re: Grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by AstroNox View Post
    Regarding the first question:
    #1 seems incomplete and abrupt to me, though I believe it may be spoken.


    "Therefore think him as a serpent's egg which, hatch'd, would, as his kind, grow mischievous, and kill him in the shell." ~ Shakespeare

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    #5

    Arrow Re: Grammar

    1. Many thanks for your immediate replies, on which I found 1st example to
    be unsuitable for my original intention. Thus, below I rewrite revised
    examples ;

    1) I know him honest
    2) I know him to be honest
    3) I know that he is honest,

    or

    1-1) I find this chair comfortable
    2-1) I find this chair to be comfortable
    3-1) I find that this chair is comfortable

    I intended to be advised about which statement is more formal, or more
    objective among three expressions by 1) adjective complement(= honest),
    2) to infinitive(= to be honest), and 3) that clause (= that he is honest).


    2. Re relative clause ; if I follow your previous guidance, can I be understood
    that following transformations are correct? ;

    * Do you still remember the day when we first met? =>

    1) Do you still remember the day which we first met on? (0)
    2) Do you still remember the day that we first met on? (0)
    3) Do you still remember the day we first met on? (0)
    4) Do you still remember the day we first met? (x)
    5) Do you still remember the day that we first met? (x)

    Once again hope to hear,


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    #6

    Re: Grammar

    'that' and 'which' are not interchangeable. Of all the days in your life, you are referring to one highly specific day - 'the day we met'. In that context, only 'that' is possible.
    1) Do you still remember the day which we first met on? (
    Incorrect
    2) Do you still remember the day that we first met on? (0)
    This may be grammatically correct but sounds 'clumsy'- perhaps a native speaker with poor education might phrase it like that.
    3) Do you still remember the day we first met on?
    Even worse
    4) Do you still remember the day we first met?
    Correct, and colloquial speech

    Now, compare:
    5a) Do you remember the day that we first met?
    5b) Do you remember the day when we first met?
    "that' and 'when' are being used as conjunctions.
    Remember, life is not made up of one sentence conversations - the speaker introduces the topic - the day we met - and then says:
    Do you remember the day when we first met, how we strolled along the river, thinking we'd never see each other ever again?
    As a conjunction, 'when' here means:'during the day (that we first met)'

    5a) Do you remember the day that we first met?
    'that' (in this context) is used as a conjunction merely to introduce a subordinate clause expressing a statement :
    Do you remember the day that we first met? That was the same day Kennedy was assassinated!
    So, if the speaker intends talking further about what happened at or during that first meeting, he would use 'when'. If he was going to speak about something else significant about 'that particular day', he would use 'that'
    Last edited by David L.; 05-Jan-2008 at 11:37.

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    #7

    Re: Grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by deepcosmos View Post
    1. Many thanks for your immediate replies, on which I found 1st example to
    be unsuitable for my original intention. Thus, below I rewrite revised
    examples ;

    1) I know him honest
    2) I know him to be honest
    3) I know that he is honest,

    or

    1-1) I find this chair comfortable
    2-1) I find this chair to be comfortable
    3-1) I find that this chair is comfortable

    I intended to be advised about which statement is more formal, or more
    objective among three expressions by 1) adjective complement(= honest),
    2) to infinitive(= to be honest), and 3) that clause (= that he is honest).
    All three statements with "find" are OK. Only 2 and 3 are acceptable with "think". find =/ think.

    Quote Originally Posted by deepcosmos View Post
    2. Re relative clause ; if I follow your previous guidance, can I be understood
    that following transformations are correct? ;

    * Do you still remember the day when we first met? =>

    1) Do you still remember the day which we first met on? (0)
    2) Do you still remember the day that we first met on? (0)
    3) Do you still remember the day we first met on? (0)
    4) Do you still remember the day we first met? (x)
    5) Do you still remember the day that we first met? (x)

    Once again hope to hear,
    All are possible but 4 is best.

    Lou

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    #8

    Arrow Re: Grammar

    Thanks very much for your explanation re when/that, about which I feel at
    moment not so easy but I'll think it over.

    By the way would you give me some more tips for following question ;

    1-1) I find this chair comfortable
    2-1) I find this chair to be comfortable
    3-1) I find that this chair is comfortable

    Which statement is more formal, or more objective among three expressions
    in the view of sentence structure ? ;

    1-1) adjective only (= comfortable),
    2-2) to infinitive(= to be comfortable),
    3-3) that clause (= that this chair is comfortable).

    Thanks again,


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    #9

    Re: Grammar

    Even with the verb "know", my answer is still the same: #3 is the best. From my experience, native speakers do not often use "know" those three forms to describe a person, whether formal or not, unless one is trying to emphasize the point.

    I would say:
    He is an honest man.
    He is an honest man, so for you to say he took the money, I don't believe you.
    Formality or objectivity, I believe, is often expressed more in the content than the syntax or structure itself, especially in English. In Korean or Japanese, I understand that syntax does play a large role, but not really so here.

    For example,

    He is an honest man, so what's the problem? Didn't he return you the money the other time?
    This is an informal use, based on the spoken content

    3. He is an honest man. He has always been, since the inception of his cadet days to the acting commander of the third guard. He exemplified it in the field, in the bunk, and even in ration quantity or toilet time. 500g is 500g and 5 minutes is 5 minutes. I have not seen any instance where his action had not lived up to his word.

    During the war of ...
    A formal use in a letter of recommendation

    The chair is different though.
    1. I find this chair comfortable.
    Correct.

    2. I find this chair to be comfortable.
    Correct, however, it is not usually used, spoken or written, though in the past tense, it sounds better (I found this chair to be comfortable).

    3. I find that this chair is comfortable.
    Correct and probably more formal than #1, though it is "heavier"; using more words than necessary.

    The formality syntaxes in English is much simpler than that of Japanese and Korean, so don't think too much about it. :)

    However, if you really need a clear answer, I'd say the "that clause" is the most formal, followed by the "adjective only". "To infinitive" doesn't sound right in use, formal or not.


    As for the second item, David L. explained it very well. If I may add, I won't put myself in the "that/when" dilemma in #5. In those two examples he gave, substituting #4 accomplishes the very same thing. There is no reason to make things more complicated than they should.

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    #10

    Re: Grammar

    To ; AstroNox

    Thanks for your interesting explanation. Have a nice weekend.

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