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  1. Unreg
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    #1

    Usage of I

    How do i use this sentence.

    I and Bob met him.

    Does it have to be ME and bob met him.

    WHich one is right?

  2. banderas's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: Usage of I

    Quote Originally Posted by Unreg View Post
    How do i use this sentence.

    I and Bob met him. Bob and I met him -is correct.

    Does it have to be ME and bob met him.no, it musn't not

    WHich one is right?
    version in red

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    #3

    Re: Usage of I

    The use of I here is an example of the influence of what I call Institutional English.

    When I is used in conjunction with one or more nouns/pronouns as subjects, it always comes last:

    Frank, Julia and I went to the store

    Now, the construction me and is very common in English and has been around for centuries:

    Me and Frank went to the store

    Despite the inevitable rumblings my next statement is going to create, there is nothing grammatically "incorrect" with this usage except (and this a big except) it is simply not accepted in Institutional English. So I'd counsel against its use on that reason alone, i.e., never give a grammar pedant an excuse to ridicule you.

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    #4

    Re: Usage of I

    Quote Originally Posted by JJM Ballantyne View Post
    The use of I here is an example of the influence of what I call Institutional English.

    When I is used in conjunction with one or more nouns/pronouns as subjects, it always comes last:

    Frank, Julia and I went to the store

    Now, the construction me and is very common in English and has been around for centuries:

    Me and Frank went to the store

    Despite the inevitable rumblings my next statement is going to create, there is nothing grammatically "incorrect" with this usage except (and this a big except) it is simply not accepted in Institutional English. So I'd counsel against its use on that reason alone, i.e., never give a grammar pedant an excuse to ridicule you.
    This depends on how much you want your sentence to sound like real spoken English.
    For real spoken English, It is me...
    For grammatically correct unnatural-sounding grammar-book English, it is I....
    that by the way sounds a bit archaic...
    I find it interesting that Dr. Grammar writes:

    It is I or it is me?
    "It is I or it is me? According to the Merriam Webster's Dictionary of the English Language,"...instead of the old choice between right and wrong we are now choosing a style; it is a choice that is much closer to the reality of usage than the old one was...Clearly, both the it is I and it's me patterns are in reputable use and have been for a considerable time. It is I tends to be used in more formal or more stuffy situations; it's me predominates in real and fictional speech and in a more relaxed writing style."

    It reminds me of "how are you? I am good" instead of "fine". Every one has been using (predominantly ) " I am good" which became commonly accepted. I encounter simliar language situation in my native language too.
    I mean, this is one of those odd instances where the gramatically incorrect form is so commonplace that it's now considered correct.
    What do you think?


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    #5

    Re: Usage of I

    "It is I tends to be used in more formal or more stuffy situations; it's me predominates in real and fictional speech and in a more relaxed writing style.

    I mean, this is one of those odd instances where the gramatically incorrect form is so commonplace that it's now considered correct."

    Grammar is a funny thing and grammarians - traditional ones at least - have an annoying tendency to cast usages in stone as immutable laws.

    But grammar isn't like mathematics (can you imagine arithmetical rules having "exceptions": 2+4=6 except when 2 is represented by 1+1 then it's 1+1+4=7?). Come off it, you can't monkey around with mathematical logic that way; however, you can certainly do that with language.

    The old "anti-me" argument is based solidly on this faulty approach to grammar. There's much noise about copula verbs and I being nominative, etc., etc. Largely nonsense because it represents a complete failure to understand how language operates: it operates by common usage. If millions of English speakers routinely use it's me and you still insist it's "incorrect", you're arguing against reality.

    A good example of how many grammar pedants go wrong is what I call the old rearrangement proof. You've doubtless encountered it. Here's a pertinent example:

    The sentence me and Jim went to the store can be proved to be incorrect grammar by removing and Jim. Now it's me went to the store. So that "proves" the use of me is wrong.

    The problem with this "proof" is that no one except a toddler ever says me went to the store. If you get someone who says me and Jim went to the store to remove Jim and restate the sentence, they'll automatically say I went to the store.

    What does this mean? It means there's a rather complex grammatical usage going on here; me can only be used as a subject when combined with another subject. The default is I. So a person who uses me and Jim would appear to possess a fairly complicated grammatical convention for determining when me and I are to be used.

    And finally, whenever you run into grammar pedants who thrust a rearrangement proof on you to make some obscure point, ask them this:

    If it's correct to say aren't I why can't I say I aren't?

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    #6

    Re: Usage of I

    Quote Originally Posted by JJM Ballantyne View Post

    If millions of English speakers routinely use it's me and you still insist it's "incorrect", you're arguing against reality.
    Even I am far away from being grammar pedant ask myself this question: milions of English speakers use "I am good" when answering "how are you". Does it make "I am good" correct?
    And finally, whenever you run into grammar pedants who thrust a rearrangement proof on you to make some obscure point, ask them this:

    If it's correct to say aren't I why can't I say I aren't?
    and can you? as I know question tags always start with a verb...
    The point I am trying to make is that learners have to have some rules. I see your point from native speaker's view but not from learner's view, I am affraid.
    What I am suppossed to say to students. Learn what grammar says but take into account that in real world some rules might be invalid?
    Could you comment on "I am good"-thing, please? Perhaps one more comment on "
    "He don’t care about me anymore." and
    Sign at the checkout of a supermarket: “Ten items or less”.
    "When we go to the party on Saturday, let’s bring a bottle of wine."
    These all are common mistaks in English made by milions natives speakers....so...
    Last edited by banderas; 29-Mar-2008 at 16:41.

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    #7

    Re: Usage of I

    "The point I am trying to make is that learners have to have some rules."

    "What I am suppossed [sic] to say to students. Learn what grammar says but take into account that in real world some rules might be invalid?"


    I've been in this situation!

    I've always approached this by considering the early phase of language training as "boot camp": don't argue with the rules, just accept them in order to progress. Then, as a student's fluency and competency improve, begin to take a less fixed and more pragmatic view of "rules."

    In my experience, any intelligent student soon becomes aware that things are never quite what they seem to be in a language (any language); that there appear to be exceptions to all the rules, that large numbers of native speakers seem to routinely and cheerfully "break" the rules.

    The reality is, to be truly fluent and conversant, one needs to learn a couple of Englishes: the real English that people actually speak and the Institutional English used in formal communication. In my own view, the latter is not so much a language as a set of arbitrary, socially demanded conventions. I have yet to meet a single English speaker who speaks so-called "Standard English."


    "Could you comment on 'I am good'-thing, please?"

    This is perfectly acceptable English and illustrates my point. Those who would absolutely insist on I am well are being, well, absolutist about the language. It's the who/whom argument.

    "He donít care about me anymore."

    Only a mistake if your dialect demands the third person singular present doesn't form. The interesting thing about this is that English has swept away all verb inflections for person and number except in the third person singular. Many dialects have gone a step further and removed these inflections completely. Again though, this where the wholly contrived institutional form of the language kicks in: we know that we can't write he don't in a formal text.*

    "Sign at the checkout of a supermarket: 'Ten items or less'."

    There's nothing wrong with this. The pedantic battle over fewer/less is over. The use of less in this way has been gaining ground in the English language for some time now.

    "When we go to the party on Saturday, letís bring a bottle of wine."

    What exactly do you find wrong with this? It appears fine to me.

    * And in many situations, even the use of doesn't would be frowned on.

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    #8

    Re: Usage of I

    Quote Originally Posted by

    [COLOR=darkgreen
    Thank you for your comment, JJM Ballantyne,[/COLOR]
    "When we go to the party on Saturday, letís bring a bottle of wine."

    What exactly do you find wrong with this? It appears fine to me.
    Is any one here who would like to say what is wrong with this sentence above?

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    #9

    Smile Re: Usage of I

    Originally Posted by

    [COLOR=darkgreen [/color]
    [COLOR=darkgreen[/b]Thank you for your comment, JJM Ballantyne,[/color]
    "When we go to the party on Saturday, letís bring a bottle of wine."

    What exactly do you find wrong with this? It appears fine to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by banderas View Post
    Is any one here who would like to say what is wrong with this sentence above?

    It should be: "let's take a bottle of wine."

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    #10

    Re: Usage of I

    "It should be: 'let's take a bottle of wine.'"

    Sorry - you are wrong.

    It can be either bring or take.

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