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    #1

    word order

    Hello everyone

    I'd like to ask which word order is more appropriate in the following sentence:

    Tasks:
    1. To prepare plans for introducing the given recommendations.

    Or "for introducing the recommendations given."

  1. stuartnz's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: word order

    Quote Originally Posted by KLPNO View Post
    Hello everyone

    I'd like to ask which word order is more appropriate in the following sentence:

    Tasks:
    1. To prepare plans for introducing the given recommendations.

    Or "for introducing the recommendations given."
    I'm not a teacher, just a native speaker, but I would say that the second option sounds more natural in most contexts. If I read the first, I'd assume that the recommendations have already been mentioned are are being referred back to.
    Last edited by stuartnz; 23-Apr-2008 at 21:58.

  2. proof.beh's Avatar

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    #3

    Re: word order

    Quote Originally Posted by KLPNO View Post
    Hello everyone

    I'd like to ask which word order is more appropriate in the following sentence:

    Tasks:
    1. To prepare plans for introducing the given recommendations.

    Or "for introducing the recommendations given."
    I think the second is wrong! because it's been neglected to be used with complete passive form of have + been given!

    So the first choice of the sentence above is true in which 'given' seems to be in the same meaning of 'determined'!

    Cheers,
    P


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    #4

    Re: word order

    Quote Originally Posted by KLPNO View Post
    Hello everyone

    I'd like to ask which word order is more appropriate in the following sentence:

    Tasks:
    1. To prepare plans for introducing the given recommendations.

    Or "for introducing the recommendations given."
    I'd probably say:

    Tasks:
    1. Prepare plans to implement the given recommendations

    or

    1. Prepare plans to introduce the given recommendations

    ----
    implement - would mean that someone has given the person some recommendations and that the person doing the task has to create a way to do the recommendations.

    introduce - would mean that someone has given the person some recommendations and the person doing the task needs to communicate the recommendations to someone else.
    Last edited by AntieAnnie; 23-Apr-2008 at 22:39. Reason: corrected a word in the last line.

  3. BobK's Avatar
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    #5

    Re: word order

    Quote Originally Posted by proof.beh View Post
    I think the second is wrong! because it's been neglected to be used with complete passive form of have + been given!

    So the first choice of the sentence above is true in which 'given' seems to be in the same meaning of 'determined'!

    Cheers,
    P
    I'm not sure what the first sentence means, but it sounds like an attempt at referring to the (discredited) prescription against splitting a participle from its auxiliary.

    The second sentence seems to refer to a tendency we've been discussing elsewhere (in the 'Ground Zero' thread) for common parlance to adopt and change the meaning of a term used in science. In Maths problems (for example) 'given' is used before a noun: "Using the given values, calculate the length of ...."

    Here are some BNC figures for use before a noun:


    1 GIVEN TIME 323
    2 GIVEN RISE 192
    3 GIVEN WAY 164
    4 GIVEN BIRTH 124
    5 GIVEN PERMISSION 110
    6 GIVEN PRIORITY 76
    7 GIVEN MOMENT 60
    8 GIVEN LEVEL 58
    9 GIVEN PERIOD 56
    10 GIVEN RESPONSIBILITY 56
    11 GIVEN SITUATION 56
    12 GIVEN ACCESS 50
    ... TOTAL 2797

    and after a noun:

    1 INFORMATION GIVEN 141
    2 REASONS GIVEN 130
    3 NAME GIVEN 109
    4 ADVICE GIVEN 100
    5 SUPPORT GIVEN 78
    6 REASON GIVEN 69
    7 EVIDENCE GIVEN 68
    8 PRIORITY GIVEN 55
    9 EXAMPLE GIVEN 53
    10 ATTENTION GIVEN 50
    ...
    TOTAL 2441

    You'll see that the position before a noun (academics might use the term 'pre-nominal' or 'pre-substantive', but I'll resist that temptation ) has begun to predominate - often in the rather looser meaning that proof.beh has given.

    But in this specific case the BNC paints a clearer picture:

    recommendations given:
    1 CJG reacting to a changed quantity or quality of lighting level. Figure 4 summarises the recommendations given in this chapter for the organisation of the physical environments...
    2 CGH to combat blue-green algae and it has worked perfectly. But there are no recommendations given as to how often it should be used, which type of salt it requires...
    [in both of which "given" does not mean 'determined', but is simply the past participle of 'give']

    But there are no hits (in the 100,000,000-word BNC) for given recommendations.

    It's possible that in some dialects "given" has come to mean "determined" in this context; it's beginning to happen in Br English in other contexts. But in this case, for a native speaker of Br English, the meaning of "determined" would be unusual and the order "recommendations given" would be much more likely. As Stuart said, 'I would say that the second option sounds more natural '; I agree, and would add a much before his "more".

    (And if you're still reading this, thanks for the effort )

    b
    Last edited by BobK; 25-Apr-2008 at 11:37. Reason: Fixed typo: 100,000,000-word

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