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    #11

    Re: The use of who and whom

    Quote Originally Posted by naomimalan View Post
    It is pretententiously incorrect to say Whom shall I say is calling? Applying Lynch's test, we get Shall I say he is calling? So it should be Who shall I say is calling? not whom.
    Your logic is somewhat off:

    Receptionist: Whom shall I say is calling? <object pronoun >
    Client: Say that I am calling. <subject pronoun >


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    #12

    Re: The use of who and whom

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    Your logic is somewhat off:

    Receptionist: Whom shall I say is calling? <object pronoun >
    Client: Say that I am calling. <subject pronoun >
    Quote Originally Posted by naomimalan View Post

    It is pretententiously incorrect to say Whom shall I say is calling? Applying Lynch's test, we get Shall I say he is calling? So it should be Who shall I say is calling? not whom.
    I must admit that I'm confused with this she said, she said.

    So I said to myself, "Self, if we all gotta put this much gray matter into this thing, then you know, as sure as a billy goat's got nuts, that this ain't no natural rule of English grammar. Self replied, "You're darn tootin' !

    Then we went to have us a beer, one each.


    pretententiously = really really really really pretentious; pretentious times ten.

    (just pullin' your leg, Naomi)

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    #13

    Re: The use of who and whom

    Quote Originally Posted by riverkid View Post

    Once again, we have a traditional rule that does not reflect actual language use. Such a rule simply isn't a rule, it's a prescription; as such it is not followed by people using natural language.
    I'm curious about what you think the difference between a rule and a prescription is, regardless of whether the rule/prescription is followed.

    prescription...the action of laying down authoritative rules or directions
    ..................something prescribed as a rule
    2006

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    #14

    Re: The use of who and whom

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    Your logic is somewhat off:
    Receptionist: Whom shall I say is calling? <object pronoun >
    Client: Say that I am calling. <subject pronoun >
    Whom is used for the object and when governed by a preposition.
    Soup, in the poll'who or whom' you said you had stopped using whom.
    Regards,
    rj1948.

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    #15

    Re: The use of who and whom

    Quote Originally Posted by rj1948 View Post
    Whom is used for the object and when governed by a preposition.
    Soup, in the poll'who or whom' you said you had stopped using whom.
    Regards,
    rj1948.
    Yes. In spoken English, I use who.

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    #16

    Re: The use of who and whom

    Quote Originally Posted by 2006 View Post
    I'm curious about what you think the difference between a rule and a prescription is, regardless of whether the rule/prescription is followed.

    prescription...the action of laying down authoritative rules or directions

    ..................something prescribed as a rule
    I'd like to respond also.

    All three of these have rules; the last one, however, is prescribed:

    than I am
    Rule => We know there is a verb, so we use I.

    than me
    Rule => We know there isn't a verb, so we use me.

    than I
    => We're taught this one maintains the integrity of the grammar. Whether we use it or not depends on what we subscribe to and who we are talking to.


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    #17

    Re: The use of who and whom

    I wonder if we could go back to the original post.
    The rule (I could quote Collins grammar) says ' Who ... with? or 'With whom ...?' The former is more conversational, the latter - more formal. Are there any differences of opinion here?

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    #18

    Re: The use of who and whom

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    I wonder if we could go back to the original post.
    The rule (I could quote Collins grammar) says ' Who ... with? or 'With whom ...?' The former is more conversational, the latter - more formal. Are there any differences of opinion here?
    OK. Here's what I know. Who ... with? is commoner/more common than With whom ... ? and the reasons for this are twofold.

    1. Modern day speakers no longer subscribe to the Latin rule that a sentence should never end with a preposition. They are ending sentences with prepositions as this is and always was a mark of English grammar.

    2. English as SVO word order (Subject-Verb-Object). Start a sentence with a pronoun and its form will be He, She, They, etc., with Who following this pattern. However, start a sentence with a preposition and its object pronoun will be him, her, their, and whom.

    From a linguistic stance, Who ... with? follows a regular pattern, and therefore conforms to the rules of English.


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    #19

    Re: The use of who and whom

    I see. So it's Latin that creates the problem. However, we are not in Rome ... .

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    #20

    Re: The use of who and whom

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    I see. So it's Latin that creates the problem. However, we are not in Rome ... .
    Exactly. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

    As you know, Latin is an inflectional language: it uses a lot of bound morphology to indicate much of the grammatical information in the language. English, in contrast, primarily uses syntactic constructions, that is, word order. So, you see, who doesn't change the meaning here:
    Who did you go with?
    Whom did you go with?
    Food for Thought
    Other WH-pronouns don't have an alternative form, so why should who?
    Operator: To where did you say you were calling? Hello? Where did you say you were calling to?
    Caller: I am trying to make a call to Boston.

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