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  1. stuartnz's Avatar
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    #31

    Re: Is the author of this essay a native speaker of English or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post

    On the contrary. Check out the titles and dates here Linguistic Society of New Zealand. And those are just by NZ linguists.

    Maori English, though, is not Standard English, right?
    Thanks for the links, I shall check some of them out. The last book I read on the subject was "Languages of New Zealand" (ISBN 0864734905), and it indicated that even the status of Maaori English as variant in its own right was in dispute. It is certainly not standard English, but I've grown up around it and ended up marrying someone who grew up where it is the standard form of English. I've also been involved in a research project on the health of the Maaori language which was interesting and informative, and took me to my wife's hometown, where the existence and even primacy of Maaori English is really beyond dispute.


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    #32

    Re: Is the author of this essay a native speaker of English or not?

    I would say "possibly not"; indicators of non-native origin are:

    1. When I was younger I had a dream to become [of becoming]-DEFINITELY

    2. and even was a member of national team of moutnain runners. [of a]-DEFINITELY

    3. make a fortune as Frank Lampard and others did [have done]-That could just be the usual bad grammar

    4. It is said, when you do something every day [sounds like a translation If 3 is bad grammar, then 4 is a straight copy from something learned, rather than something ingrained. 'It is said' is out of style with the rest of the paragraph.

    When it comes to how native speakers actually speak and express themselves, I agree with Mr. P.
    ...and would add the use of 'should' as another indicator. Native speakers commonly use it as the contraction, as in "i'd", but 'sport should not be' seems too 'correct' to me. Native speakers don't seem to care about the word, only new learners!

    And I think when we have 280 million native speakers in American - then the rest of the English speaking world - and (what is it now?) 900 million non-native speakers in China alone, then to start speculating on a Maori origin to this text.....in all probability!....

    And i suspect that the poster knows full well this is not from a native speaker and is testing whether the author (himself??) is passing for kosher(=genuine).
    Last edited by David L.; 05-Jul-2008 at 13:00.

  2. beascarpetta's Avatar
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    #33

    Re: Is the author of this essay a native speaker of English or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by banderas View Post
    A very good point!!!
    Would it be too much to ask where you got that bit of text from?

    I simply googled bits of it (as all of you probably did) and the results I got were quite interesting.

    In my humble opinion, any upper-intermediate ESL student could have written it.
    regards,
    bea

  3. stuartnz's Avatar
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    #34

    Re: Is the author of this essay a native speaker of English or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by banderas View Post
    A very interesting disscussion! I can tell you, Stuart, that the author might not have anything to do with Maori English and still be able to compose that essey.

    Indeed. My comment about Maaori English was in relation to the fact that many of the constructions which Soup identified as not being likely from native speakers are VERY common among many monolingually English speakers here in NZ. I was wondering about possible explanations for the difference bwtween Soup's experience and my own, which was brought to mind my saturation exposure to Maaori English as one possible reason why even I find some of the constructions Soup flagged as non-native to be completely natural, first-choice constructions in my idiolect. Most spekaers of Maaori English are monolingual and do not speak Maaori, but I wonder if elements of Maaori language structures made their way into the English spoken first as a second language in Maaori strongholds, then latterly as the only language during the period when Maaori was being actively suppressed through such things as corporal punishment for those found speaking it at school, etc.

  4. Soup's Avatar
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    #35

    Re: Is the author of this essay a native speaker of English or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by banderas View Post
    Thanks, Soup for your assessment.
    You're most welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by banderas
    As I understand, in your opinion, a native would use some others expressions than those in purple?
    Not necessarily. The words in purple are flags: they either don't fit the writer's pattern or are not indicative of native-like English.

    Quote Originally Posted by banderas
    Could you replace these low-level errors and compose it as an average native would do?
    Mr P is doing a fine job. It'd be great if others would join in, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by banderas
    What should be there to make you think the author was a native speaker of English?
    Something like, say,
    When I was a kid, I had this dream of becoming a great football player. I was really good at football, and there was nothing stopping me from making my dream come true, except me.I tried a lot of different sports, and was even a member of the national mountain runners team. [add in something here about why/how you stopped yourself from realizing your dream] At the age of 18, however, I realized that I wasn't going to make it as a professional football player, that sports were not all that important in the real world, and that I would have to do something else with my life. [add in something here about why you had to make that decision] I do not regret my decision, and I am still in love with sports. Whenever I play football or basketball, people around me are amazed at how good I am. They can't believe I am not a professional player. I just have a natural talent for sports. Who knows, maybe I should follow my passion and make a fortune like Frank Lampard. Then again, when you do something every day, your passion gradually becomes your profession and is no longer any fun any more. So, no regrets. I followed my dream in part; I kept my passion from becoming a boring routine.
    Quote Originally Posted by banderas
    Could you explain where exactly the author omitted the second subject in compound constructions?
    [1] I tried many different sports and__even was a member of national team of moutnain runners. <Alternatively, and I was even ...>

    [2] At the age of 18 I decided that sport should not be so important and__chose to do something else for living. <Alternatively, and (so) I chose ...>
    Quote Originally Posted by banderas
    What do you mean by "what's not there"?
    Collocations, idioms, fixed expressions, and so on.


    Banderas, is there any particular reason why the paragraph should be written by a native speaker? That is, why did you ask the question in post #1?

  5. stuartnz's Avatar
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    #36

    Re: Is the author of this essay a native speaker of English or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by David L. View Post
    I would say "possibly not"; indicators of non-native origin are:

    1. When I was younger I had a dream to become [of becoming]-DEFINITELY
    This is the only one that really screams "non-native speaker" to me. But then, my own English is obviously pretty bar sinister, so that doesn't count for much.

  6. banderas's Avatar
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    #37

    Re: Is the author of this essay a native speaker of English or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by beascarpetta View Post

    I simply googled bits of it (as all of you probably did) and the results I got were quite interesting.
    Hi, Bea,
    so you did not find it...What do you mean by "quite interesting"?

  7. Soup's Avatar
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    #38

    Re: Is the author of this essay a native speaker of English or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by tedtmc View Post

    It would be unrealistic to expect all native speakers write perfect English, free of grammer mistakes.
    True, but errors, and typos (typing mistakes) too.

    I dare say the paragraph we're looking at is housed with grammar errors. On the contrary, the grammar is fine. It's the wording (e.g., dream to become ~ dream of becoming) that's suspect.

  8. Soup's Avatar
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    #39

    Re: Is the author of this essay a native speaker of English or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by David L. View Post
    And i suspect that the poster knows full well this is not from a native speaker and is testing whether the author (himself??) is passing for kosher(=genuine).

    And this isn't the first time we've seen this.

  9. stuartnz's Avatar
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    #40

    Re: Is the author of this essay a native speaker of English or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    These efforts are given urgency by the fact that the most current estimate by Te Puni Kökiri (the Ministry of Mäori Development) indicates that Mäori is spoken fairly well or better by only 20 % of the adult Mäori population. Immersion education is making an important contribution to Mäori language revitalization.

    Linguist List - Dissertation Abstracts
    I missed this reference to the Te Puni Kokiri study. That was the study I worked on, as a supervisor for a team of interviewers, several of whom were bilingual, and one of whom had received all her education from Kindergarten to early tertiary in Maaori-language medium schools. It was a VERY interesting project to be part of.

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